OT - bashing cops, etc

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:46 pm

Marlin336W wrote:
If we're going to hold all cops responsible for the actions of those who break the law, then we've got to do the same on all levels of society. Let's hold all doctors responsible for acts of malpractice that are fairly common. Let's hold all gun owners responsible for the deaths of uneducated children. Let's... etc, etc, etc.
Shouldn't this be the way? If break the law then pay the price.I mean, why would you have to depend on a cop to do anything but uphold the law, be knowledgeable of the law, and protect citizens.

I don't think cops should have authority to give breaks to people on personal judgment. If you broke the law, deal with the penalty. This taking the court room to the streets is a bunch of stuff. That is where this has all gone wrong.

Read what I wrote once more. I'm not talking about holding people responsible for what they have done, but holding people responsible for what OTHERS have done. And that piece was a bit sarcastic to get the point across. Neither you nor I should be held responsible for murders committed by gun owners - because neither you nor I committed those murders. In the same way, we should not attempt to hold all cops accountable for the actions of those who are in the wrong. That was my point.

Yes, laws should be enforced - or repealed. We need to bring pressure to bear on our legislative branches to get rid of bad laws. A large measure of our problems as a society stems from impunity. Another HUGE measure stems from recidivists, the same violent criminals that our system has recycled many times over. Anyway, read what I wrote again. I believe you misunderstood me.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:50 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Frank, you'd go ballistic if someone compared you to one of the few bad eggs in the military....... Do you think you are doing the same thing, Bro?
Lets stick to the program. We are talking about the militarization of police, and the victimization of citizens.

But just to humor you, as a rule, I think overall people who volunteer for military service do so for a much different reason than the new crop of LEO recruits, so your analogy does not hold water Sarge.

Dang, Frank, remind me to send you a new bag of rawhide chewies

.........LEOs are absolutely a paramilitary organizations, so you can eleminate THAT from your diatribe. And that wasn't an analogy, it was pretty much facts, Sir....... The most dangerous think a soldier in Basra or a Cop in LA does is make a cold stop....... Just let the logic follow.......FWIW, there are cranky cops out there.....Someone telling them to pee off prolly don't help much....

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm

jkbrea wrote:... Have you ever seen a penal code and vehicle code. There are literally tens of thousands of laws and you expect him to know all of them. If he acted with criminal intent, then that's different. My God, go to court and watch judges and lawyers try to interpret law, and you expect a cop to know it inside and out.

We're expected to know them.... at least that's what we get told... ("ignorance of the law is no excuse...)

...The bottom line is there will always be bad people in all jobs. I can go on about the truck driver that stole my TV and other items when I moved back to the US after serving in the Army, the defense attorney that paid a witness to lie on the stand, the contractor or mechanic that billed for work not done, and on and on. I don't lump them in with all people in their profession.

I absolutely love my job and am proud of what I do. My son followed in my footsteps and I couldn't be more proud.

I like coming to this site to learn but am afraid to be ostracized for being a cop.

There are way too many good cops here (both retired and otherwise) to ostracize them.

I think the dialogue is good, because at least were having one - and not, on either "side", putting our fingers in our ears and going la la la...

IMO there is/has been more of these discussions recently because of the very real fear/angst over whether or how many "Good Cops" will stand up to the Mall Ninjas if/when the Gun Confiscation order comes down.

That very real scenerio will put good people and good cops on opposite sides.

There's a lot of very anti-gun Administrators out there running PDs, and that can't but help lead to an anti-gunowner attitude within the departments - as expressed by this SIG LINE from a cop on a cop forum I have participated on:

"A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."

Or this from a major poster who happens to be a DC Cop:

*"I" trust no one with a weapon UNLESS they are LE/Military.

You can also read herewhere many Law ENFORCEMENT Officers (and LE students) disparage the 2nd Amendment altogether. (Note that it seems to be the retired guys who get it...)

The constitution was written when slavery was popular, kicking indians off there land was cool and when women didnt have the vote. Times change buddy. The 2nd amendment is somewhat outdated. When it was written firearm ownership was a nescessary part of life. Today it is far less so.

There seem to be some weird, unhealthy attachment issues going on with these CCW holders toward their guns. I'm going to have to agree with Erik in that some type of therapy might be necessary.

It's these sentiments within the Ranks that genuinely concerns people.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:04 pm

jkbrea

good post and I believe you. but how do I know if it's you next time I get stopped? I sure won't ostracize you for being a cop. I think I posted in this thread that I consider myself to be on the same side as the LEOs.

Maybe this is where our perceptions don't quite meet.

People complain that cops are unfriendly. Like kimwcook posted, you know you're a good person when the cops arrive or you're stopped, but we don't. It's called survival. You have to have the same mindset and not get lax because this person"seems" ok.

Has it occurred to you that it's just as dangerous for us as it is for you? I mean, we're surrounded by strangers all day, and some percentage mean to do us harm. Then when there's a percentage of uniformed officers that we can't trust it compounds our problems. It's called survival. Just because you know you're a good officer doesn't mean we do. If only there was a secret handshake that could get us past this discomfort zone, 'cause I'm one of the good guys. So is Frank. So is just about everybody on this forum.

This is by no means a rant against your profession, it's an attempt to hold up the mirror I see things reflected in so you can see the same things.

I do understand that your job is dangerous and there are creeps that you're hired to deal with. I'm glad you're there doing the job. But I hope you can see the flip side from our point of view.

I agree totally about how many laws there are on the books. Not only do I not expect you to know everyone of them, but I don't think it's possible for us civilians to comply with every one of them. So I know how you feel about that. But knowing that I cannot possibly comply with all the laws at the same time, and knowing further that LEOs and judges can't keep it straight either doesn't lower my anxiety about it.

Let's shake and find something to laugh about. Did you hear the one about...

Grizz

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:37 pm

Well Grizz, I never said anything about an unarmed society. You're right their are unsavory people running loose and amuck in our society every minute of the day. I believe every responsible person should be able to pack and should pack. Everyday, everywhere. An armed society is a polite society and it would cut back on my sticking job security. Job security can slow the h%^L down if you ask me.

I agree with good goal oriented discussion. But bashing anybody needs to go away. At least from here. Too many good people here to be throwing stuff like that around.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:41 pm

Leverdude, the city was trying to terminate the sergeant. They knew they had a bad apple. The two attorney's were the sergeants, paid by him, not the city. Unfortunately, at that point in time he remained employed. It was because of the civil service commission. Not because of anyone else. I don't have the answer. Thank god, he isn't employed anymore by law enforcement.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:17 pm

I am a police officer and while I don't like the "bashing" of innocent brothers in law enforcement. I do not tolorate any corrupt officers. I HATE when officers abuse their powers. This goes for federal,state, local. Anyone given the reponsibility of policing our country should be cognazant and even fearful of the power entrusted to them by the citizens of our nation. In fact each is trained in ethics at basic police academy. I have had the pleasure of working with many professional individuals from every walk. I have also had the privelidge of firing some who have misfit the uniform. Our is the only nation whose founding document "LIMITS" the power of its police force. I think this is great. too many people suffer at the hands of a few heavy handed cops that should never have gotten into this profession in the first place. If you want to weed out corrupion start at the top. If it is there they either know and wink at it or are actively a part of it. AmBroCal thanks for sticking up for us but I dare say that some of these individuals don't deserve your loyalty.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:22 pm

505stevec wrote:AmBroCal thanks for sticking up for us but I dare say that some of these individuals dont deserve your loyalty.

Aaahhhh..... but that's the whole issue. Individuals. And the individual scum that abuse their power do not have my loyalty. My friends who are true MEN in the police force DO however have my loyalty and gratitude. It's a tough enough job without being stabbed in the back by the very ones you are supposed to serve...

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:26 pm

AmBraCol wrote:
505stevec wrote:AmBroCal thanks for sticking up for us but I dare say that some of these individuals dont deserve your loyalty.

Aaahhhh..... but that's the whole issue. Individuals. And the individual scum that abuse their power do not have my loyalty. My friends who are true MEN in the police force DO however have my loyalty and gratitude. It's a tough enough job without being stabbed in the back by the very ones you are supposed to serve...

WEll to that I say thank you sir. If you are ever in New Mexico near Grants call me and I will buy you a cup.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:26 pm

I would only ask that any and all Officers of the Peace that read this thread
please try to not be angry and PLEASE don't feel like people are trying to
disrespect you. It is obvious that these are REAL concerns being aired here.

I would also ask that others be as polite as possible while raising concerns.

I have SERIOUS concerns about our society having any sort of problem whether
it be natural disaster, logistical problems(people are not getting food in a city
environment)causing riots and having a knock on my door and someone with a gun telling
me I can't have one.

If I were to walk into my local police station with such a concern I would be
laughed out of the building. But once something bad happens it's no laughing
matter when I have to worry about protecting my family.

We can sit here all day and talk about "why a cop hurt my feelings" or the
reasons behind it. That's not the point that scares me the most.

What scares me the most is no one said anything about the "katrina confiscations"
Did we agree with them or not? People were looking for someone to just say
"it was wrong to do" and "it wouldn't happen where I live" but there
wasn't even a peep.

I'm gonna go and check on that long dead thread now so I'll know if I need
to come back and apologize.

Silence is not a good indicator of feelings. I know feelings were running high
on that thread, but "didn't want to get razzed" is not a good excuse for not
saying anything. The last thing a police officer should be afraid of is words.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:29 pm

505stevec wrote:WEll to that I say thank you sir. If you are ever in New Mexico near Grants call me and I will buy you a cup.

Thank you, sir. I'm not sure where Grants is. Last time I was in NM was in '06. Spent most of a week up in Raton area at the Whittington center. Beautiful area, great range. If I'm headed that way someday I'll be putting out a notice here. There's a lot of folks I'd love to meet in person.

MikeNV · Post by **MikeNV** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:20 pm

Soreshoulder said "Lets stick to the program. We are talking about the militarization of police, and the victimization of citizens.
But just to humor you, as a rule, I think overall people who volunteer for military service do so for a much different reason than the new crop of LEO recruits, so your analogy does not hold water Sarge.[/quote]"

Having been in both military as an NCO in a combat MOS (USMC 1981-1987) and a current Sgt. in a medium size metro police department..... so your arguement doesn't hold water with me.

I have arrested both cops and active service military that have gone bad. The cop (ex-cop now) had kiddy porn on his computer that he had brought to the computer doctor to fix. The Marine (ex-marine now) had brutally sexual assaulted a young college student and then attempted to kill her by bashing her head against a concrete wall. I don't broad brush either profession ..... each person that steps on the other side of the law will have to be judged by 12 fellow citizens and the Lord in the end.

Right now about 35-40% of our new officers have combat time served in the military...so explain that one.... I'm sure you'll find a reason... Like every other closed minded person who wants to see things their way.

Soreshoulder it seems like you have been wronged by a policeman sometime in your life... maybe you should take it up with the department's internal affairs division or seek counseling or better yet you can help solve the problem, my agency is hiring, pass all the tests, strap on the gunbelt and come see how really easy this job is......

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:46 pm

sore shoulder wrote:.... if any cop enforces laws that are unConstitutional (fact:most do) ...

jkbrea wrote: Have you ever seen a penal code and vehicle code. There are literally tens of thousands of laws and you expect him to know all of them. If he acted with criminal intent, then that's different. My God, go to court and watch judges and lawyers try to interpret law, and you expect a cop to know it inside and out.

There seems to be times on this site when it is clear that one's expectations of others is wildly out of whack. Everyone but [your name here] is supposed to do his job to perfection or be fired. Sorry, but stop judging others so harshly!

The Constitution is a great document. But, lawyers fight about every little provision each and every day. The search and seizure cases alone could fill a library and there are still questions and gray areas. I know becaues I fight on these issues every day, too.

Cops simply cannot know the constitutionality of every act they make. (I know, you are all now going to say that you only mean those really obvious cases, but what's obvious to you is still not all going to be obvious to everyone else.) While many of you hate judges these days, that is the judge's job - to decide after the fact if the decision the LEO made was the right one. Heck, Sore Shoulder is mad that an LEO might be enforcing an unconstitutional law - then why the hell did your elected representatives, the guys who had all the time in the world to research and evaluate the law, pass it in the first place? But you think a 22yo cop is going to know it is unconstitutional?

Just today I had a defense attorney file a Motion to Suppress evidence claiming that officers had illegally entered a home after a report of a gunshot/fight. When they did enter they happened to find a woman bound and beaten half to death in a bathroom. The attorney is going to argue that the cops didn't have probable cause (and emergency circumstances) to enter the apartment b/c the two dipholes standing outside said nothing was wrong. The judge is going to listen to the evidence for an hour or so and then spend a while researching and writing a decision about whether the officers had enough information to have entered. So, do you really think the officers should have taken that amount of time to make sure they were abiding by the most recent decisions of the 4th Amendment? I guarantee the woman is glad they didn't take the time!

These guys can't be perfect. Ultimately it is up to the rest of the criminal justice system - your lawyer, the [reasonable] prosecutor, and the judge to decide if they overstepped their authority.

There are obviously bad eggs that make insanely stupid, and in some cases, criminal, decisions. Those guys should be given door (at least) immediately. Most of the bad decisions (probably even the LEO in the Walmart) should result in some discipline and some training. The important part is getting good people at the top of the chain of command to give them the proper training and instruction.

Michael in NH

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:46 pm

the leo must be held t a higher standard. a gun and a badge carry a ot of power. it goes with the the job. thank god for the good ones. but the bad ones need to be weeded out RIGHT NOW!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:26 pm

The REAL problem is our failure to differentiate between CRIME and VICE.

Crime is a legitimate government matter. There is an actual VICTIM (not just some hypothetical 'offended' individual, or generic 'harm to societal norms'). Crimes violate the basic tenets of 'Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Don't Assault, Don't Threaten, and Don't Lie' and are legitimate reasons for LEO's to do something.

Vice is NOT a legitimate government matter, no matter whether 90% of the public finds the activity against their religion or in poor taste. There is NO real 'victim' and one heck of a lot of subjectivity.

Just as an example - 'drugs' are bad - we imprison more people than any other nation due to our 'drug war' yet there is NO sensible reason that marijuana should be illegal but alcohol legal. For that matter there is NO reason LSD or heroin should be illegal either, even though most anyone with any sense will tell you they are dangerous and stupid to use. The problem is, you can't legislate morality, and 'morality' if only adhered to due to the law, ceases to be true morality anyway.
As long as we citizens get endless notions of what's 'wrong' and want to use our neighbors tax dollars to arrest our other neighbor, just because we disapprove of what he/she does, it WILL come back to bite us. If you don't approve of marijuana, then maybe someday Mormons will get in power and declare tobacco, or caffeine illegal. Maybe the Amish will get in power and ban electricity. If our OWN religious and spiritual beliefs are so weak we have to bolster them by 'recruiting' our neighbors via the sheriff's gun, we have no real faith.

Back when people pretty much lived a Libertarian life, even if their official party designation was Republican or Democrat, they ignored the moral problems of their neighbors, or approached them with their OWN Bible in hand, and nobody resented the LEO's because the only way you'd get on their bad side was to hurt someone or steal something.

Now, if you dig a pond and disturb a 'wetland' or if you recreate with the wrong drug, or own a gun that has a bayonet lug, you may be a felon. OF COURSE that's going to stir resentment.

Add to that by funding it with horribly high and unfair taxes, and it's a wonder we haven't had another tea party already!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:12 pm

Kismet wrote:[Most of the bad decisions (probably even the LEO in the Walmart) should result in some discipline and some training. The important part is getting good people at the top of the chain of command to give them the proper training and instruction.

Michael in NH

Are you actually suggesting that a cop who threatens to "find something" to arrest a law abiding citizen for should keep his job? Holy justifiable stuff! He should be fired and arrested!

Any cop who would violate the 2A in the line of duty is not worthy of the title peace officer, but more correctly should wear the title Jack Booted Thug, because thats what he is. I dont care who the elected authorities are who made the illegal laws, the cops should refuse to "enforce" them, as should anyone in the legal system with any integrity. This is not any vague grey area as you've tried to paint it, it's blatant and flagrant, and it's nourished by those who go along with it or rationalize the incremental stripping of our rights.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:12 pm

+1 for

505Steve
Jeeps and
AJMD429

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:25 pm

AJMD429 wrote:The REAL problem is our failure to differentiate between CRIME and VICE.

Crime is a legitimate government matter. There is an actual VICTIM (not just some hypothetical 'offended' individual, or generic 'harm to societal norms'). Crimes violate the basic tenets of 'Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Don't Assault, Don't Threaten, and Don't Lie' and are legitimate reasons for LEO's to do something.

Vice is NOT a legitimate government matter, no matter whether 90% of the public finds the activity against their religion or in poor taste. There is NO real 'victim' and one heck of a lot of subjectivity.

Just as an example - 'drugs' are bad - we imprison more people than any other nation due to our 'drug war' yet there is NO sensible reason that marijuana should be illegal but alcohol legal. For that matter there is NO reason LSD or heroin should be illegal either, even though most anyone with any sense will tell you they are dangerous and stupid to use. The problem is, you can't legislate morality, and 'morality' if only adhered to due to the law, ceases to be true morality anyway.
As long as we citizens get endless notions of what's 'wrong' and want to use our neighbors tax dollars to arrest our other neighbor, just because we disapprove of what he/she does, it WILL come back to bite us. If you don't approve of marijuana, then maybe someday Mormons will get in power and declare tobacco, or caffeine illegal. Maybe the Amish will get in power and ban electricity. If our OWN religious and spiritual beliefs are so weak we have to bolster them by 'recruiting' our neighbors via the sheriff's gun, we have no real faith.

Back when people pretty much lived a Libertarian life, even if their official party designation was Republican or Democrat, they ignored the moral problems of their neighbors, or approached them with their OWN Bible in hand, and nobody resented the LEO's because the only way you'd get on their bad side was to hurt someone or steal something.

Now, if you dig a pond and disturb a 'wetland' or if you recreate with the wrong drug, or own a gun that has a bayonet lug, you may be a felon. OF COURSE that's going to stir resentment.

Add to that by funding it with horribly high and unfair taxes, and it's a wonder we haven't had another tea party already!

You do understand that the Legislature makes the laws and law enforcement officers only arrest folks for breaking those laws don't you?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:33 pm

Kismet wrote:[ Heck, Sore Shoulder is mad that an LEO might be enforcing an unconstitutional law - then why the hell did your elected representatives, the guys who had all the time in the world to research and evaluate the law, pass it in the first place? Michael in NH

Well thats easy Michael, they are Liberals with a Marxist agenda, any intelligent person can see that. They are gaining power in the urban/metro Liberal environment by using a voter base of freeloading socialists who pander to special interest groups who want everything handed to them by the govt, so they vote for the people who tell them they'll give it to them. I do not live in an area which tolerates these sort of abuses, in fact my state made 2 laws recently. One, that no municipalty can enforce any law making a citizen a criminal just by changing their location, and they can drive into and through and stay fro as long as they want with a firearm in their vehicle. They also made CO a "shall issue" state, taking away the usurped arbitrary decisions of places like Denver where they would deny this in the past. So, in CO if I can pass a background check they have to issue me a CCW, and I can carry an AR15 in my truck or car anywhere I want irregardless of Denvers Assault Weapon ban. Apparently it was no grey area at all to the state legslature that is not ruled by a special interest coddling liberal majority.

The problem is when you have a liberal Marxist majority who has at their disposal a paramilitary force who does not question what they are enforcing, and in fact as in the case of the Wal Mart stooge, zealously and willingly go along with it.

The fact is the 2A is enumerated as an individual right just like the rest of the first 10 amendments, none of them are govt rights, the govt has none, only The People do, and any interpretation that does not agree is false and has an agenda.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:05 pm

ScottT wrote:...You do understand that the Legislature makes the laws and law enforcement officers only arrest folks for breaking those laws don't you?

Yes we do ScottT. And we also understand that there are those who will "enforce" Immoral, Unethical and Unconstitutional "Laws" because it is "only their job" to do so... often with as much excessive force as allowed.

Which is both the point and the problem.

Just as there are some law "enforcement" officers who will gladly repress, abuse and harass CCW holders exercising their RKBA, there are some law "enforcement" officers who will gladly repress, abuse and harass Anti- Abortion Advocates who are exercising their RTFS.

No Violence, No Foul - regardless of what the "law" - written by people more worried about an agenda than reality - says. No Free Person should be subject to harrassment by a Government Official for non-violently exercising a Fundamental Right.

I can cross a Yellow Line in the middle of a street in Hammond Indiana - and instantly become a "felon" that any number of Illinois Cops would happily throw behind bars... because that line - running through a gang-banger neighorhood - seperates my CCW issuing State from the State of Opression.

Tell me that that is Right or Fair... even though it's "legal".

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:10 pm

KirkD wrote:AmBraCol, I agree. Only a simple-minded person generalizes from a few bad apples to the conclusion that they are all bad apples.

Well said. This is the same broad brush gun owners are painted with by the media and the left, and we don't like it one little bit.

My father was an LEO (a FBI Special Agent). I have known many throughout my life - local, state, federal. 99% of them are the finest people I've ever met - same stock as 99% of the military men and women I am honored to know. Like everything else, human nature being what it is, a few bad apples show up everywhere. LEO's, military, busines, clergy, government - it is just the nature of life.

That being said, we show our respect and honor for those that serve by our vigorous condemnation of those who abuse their position. As it should be - and as every "good cop" wants it to be!

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:15 pm

kimwcook wrote:Leverdude, the city was trying to terminate the sergeant. They knew they had a bad apple. The two attorney's were the sergeants, paid by him, not the city. Unfortunately, at that point in time he remained employed. It was because of the civil service commission. Not because of anyone else. I don't have the answer. Thank god, he isn't employed anymore by law enforcement.

I'm sure thats the case & one reason I hesitate, believe it or not.

to get into these discusions is because theres guys I think are likely good cops I'm going to end up differing with. Its a difficult subject to discus but its one that has to be. If we are going to discuss civilian distrust of police.

Even him keeping his job is kind of moot. Did he get arrested & charged in a criminal court? I doubt a jury would have let him off & I doubt that a violent offender could retain employment in a police force.
Is there something preventing an officer from cuffing his partner & throwing hi in jail then & there instead of going thru administration? If there is I think thats a good place to start fixing things. After all, he beat a citizen. Thats a crime against a person, not an administrative error.
Often I hear calls for sympathy because such & such a thing could ruin an officers career. But normal folks have their careers ruined all the time by committing crimes. Is this different somehow? People also lose careers over stupid mistakes. Thats how things are, we need to be held responsible regardless of profession.

We had a case here years ago where 2 off duty officers came out of a bar & caught a junkie robbing their car. They beat the man to the ground yelling at him & telling him he must be nuts to #%ck with a cops car. The police arrived while they were still beating the guy. They got booked but later the charges were dismissed & they got some kind of suspension & had to go thru anger management. When folks raised hell they told us to treat them like normal people & forget they were cops. Kind of ironic & insulting since anyone but a cop would have been charged & gone to trial.
No matter the charge really because in CT a "violent misdemeanor" disqualifies you from gun ownership, in most cases so you'ld lose your gun rights.

But if your a cop, you dont go to trial, you dont lose your gun & you keep on getting paid so you can do it again. Pretty cool rackett.

I'm sure its frustrating to the good guys but its hard for me to sympathize.
If there was ever a place for a zero tolerance policy its law enforcement discipline. IMHO of course.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:16 pm

Sorry, but I'm tired of being told that they don't have the manpower to pursue a $12000 theft with photos of the perps, yet they can run speed traps everyday with 4 cars at one location, and hand out tickets for not wearing seatbelts in Wichita. I'm tired of being told that theft is not THEIR problem, but they can harass teenage chicks with low cut shirts for having the school logo shoe polished on their car window...of course in the name of "safety". I'm tired of telling my kids that cops can't be trusted to enter your home cause they're looking for anything to allow them to flex their muscles. Don't talk to cops cause they will twist everything you say.

I once had a cop tell me that he had tried to get some kids removed from their home because he didn't agree with the mothers house cleaning.

It really is an "us vs. them" mentality. It's a Janet Reno and Waco mentality...a Ruby Ridge Mentality.

I went to school with a guy who wanted to be a cop. Majored in LE. He told me repeatedly that he couldn't WAIT to get his gun and shoot some baddie. Well, guess what...he's a KC Seargent now, and he was on a COPS episode...I'm sure he's killed a few by now.

I see this attitude more and more. I see cops with attitudes pulling people over to reprimand them and ticket them for BS "crimes" like seatbelt laws and slow and go's at stop signs in remote parts of towns late at night. LE isn't about safety anymore..its just a BS excuse to raise revenue. It isn't about helping those who need help.

"Protect and Serve" is gone in this country. It will never return.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:16 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote: ...That being said, we show our respect and honor for those that serve by our vigorous condemnation of those who abuse their position. As it should be - and as every "good cop" wants it to be!

You don't want to know how we are treated in Chicagoland for doing that...

I can only pray the new Super can get the reforms past the Emperor...

(Somebody tell me why politically connected cops in Chicago who murder and steal are still on the street while an un-connected Chicago rookie is rotting in an Iowa prison fo KOing an assultive drunk with a single punch...)

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:
KirkD wrote:AmBraCol, I agree. Only a simple-minded person generalizes from a few bad apples to the conclusion that they are all bad apples.
Well said. This is the same broad brush gun owners are painted with by the media and the left, and we don't like it one little bit.

My father was an LEO (a FBI Special Agent). I have known many throughout my life - local, state, federal. 99% of them are the finest people I've ever met - same stock as 99% of the military men and women I am honored to know. Like everything else, human nature being what it is, a few bad apples show up everywhere. LEO's, military, busines, clergy, government - it is just the nature of life.

That being said, we show our respect and honor for those that serve by our vigorous condemnation of those who abuse their position. As it should be - and as every "good cop" wants it to be!

Very well said. I was holding off responding to this topic as I think you know where I stand. Paul, thanks for starting this post and really drawing out exactly where some people stand.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:52 pm

jengel wrote:[Paul, thanks for starting this post and really drawing out exactly where some people stand.

Yes. Thank you.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:55 am

I was going to post a lot more. But, decided to just let ya'll know that you should get out the spray cans, for your brush is simply ticklish! Hehehe! So, as formerly one of the chosen, select, few to swear to "Protect the Constitution of the United States and uphold the Laws of California (and later, Texas)", I am proud to wear the sobriquet of "P-I-G". For I am filled with PRIDE to have worn the badges and uniforms of the Departments I served with, to have maintained my INTEGRITY and to have the GUTS to stand down the hounds of Hell that would prey on my fellow citizen.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:08 am

I'll have to guess that most folks on this site are above average in the scheme
of things as far as society is concerned. Responsible, hard working, try to do
the right thing kind of people.

Or at least that's what pops into my head when I think "levergunner"

To be perfectly honest I was shocked to find this kind of percentage of folks
questioning LEO's to this degree, I honestly thought "I" had maybe by chance
run into the high school jocks who couldn't let go or something all this time.

I am REALLY praying that we can all walk away from this learning something.

bunklocoempire · Post by **bunklocoempire** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:18 am

Boils down to this for me out in Hawaii:

As far as safety, I'm responsible for my own safety and I resent (as others might too) that I am not "entrusted" (more like infringed) with the same tools (read carry permit) as police officers are. I'm also discouraged and a little outraged at the lack of encouraging community policeing. Yes, I believe in neighborhood watch - with guns. And it is discouraging to a law abiding citizen when we are subjected to harsher fines/penalties than the police, (more resentment).

AJMD429 wrote:The REAL problem is our failure to differentiate between CRIME and VICE.

So true.

And this was "countered" with

ScottT wrote: You do understand that the Legislature makes the laws and law enforcement officers only arrest folks for breaking those laws don't you?

I understand this, and I also understand the revenues enforcing these laws creates. Always follow the money. Seems to me revenue can quickly take priority over safety. Not so good me thinks, and creates more resentment by ordinary people who

would be glad to help police their own community, not for revenues, but for the greater good.

Get back to our Constitution, involve the law abiding community (armed/militia), hold ALL to the same standards - citizens AND police. SWAT teams? Sure, as long as law abiding citizens are "entrusted" with the same equipment.

Until this happens it will continue to be "us vs. them". It's become a messed up system due to ignoring our founding fathers, all comes back to money and shifting responsibilites, surprise.

My thanks to all our good police officers here and everywhere. I do appreciate the job you do.

Bunkloco

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:05 am

There is something else that is woven into this thread. To be specific, it is the frustration of an ever-increasing number of laws. It is laws, and more laws to keep from breaking the first set of laws, then more laws against activities for which there is no victim. I once picked up a copy of Canada's criminal code and hefted it in my hand at the bookstore. I realized that there is no way I can remember all those laws. Furthermore, I have carefully read certain sections, especially those to do with firearms, and I'm not even sure I understand them with all their jargon and section a, part 2 references.

So I was thinking about all this the other day and I decided that part of the problem is that people want the government to take care of them. Instead of taking responsibility for their own actions, they want the government to be responsible. So the government has been made responsible and starts making up laws. Laws piled on top of laws, until today we have a Rube-Goldberg whack of laws that, like cancer, is getting piled higher every day so that I'm just waiting till the day when there are laws passed about how many sheets of toilet paper one can use to wipe ones backside per sitting. Then the next thing you know, they will be making laws about how much toilet paper I can use as filler per cartridge. Because politicians feel obsessed with justifying their existence, lawmaking has gotten completely out of control. They need to pass a law against making laws.

This is one reason I take my family into the wilderness once per year, where there is no civilization, no Big Brother, only complete freedom. About the only use a book containing the federal laws has, out there in the wilderness, is to start campfires with and wipe ones backside with. Amazingly enough, we've taken as many as two other families with us and have never had a single murder out there (even though we got knives and guns), no thieving (although we did have a case of some children sneaking some cookies once), no drug-dealing, no one is caught speeding in their canoe. We can let out a yell anytime we jolly well feel like it without getting arrested.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:09 am

Wow! What a day you guys had! I missed this entirely yesterday while I was doing family business.

I feel that maybe I helped set this off with the first post about the article concerning KS tornado survivors being victimized by law enforcement agencies. It seems that that article may have been incorrect. I'm glad if that is so. However, it really angered me to read that piece (which was probably its purpose).

Now, I have friends who are police officers. I have had police officers tell me I should, NOW, go get my CHP and start carrying. There are a lot of police officers and former such here on the forum. Most if not all would be just fine with personal firearms ownership. Indeed, I had no problem several weeks ago when I was involved in an auto-accident and the responding officer was younger than my youngest kids. However...

I think that in much of this country, due to leadership in political circles which influences the hire of police department managers/chiefs who influence, as all leaders do, their departments one way or another. Many of those managers have encouraged a culture of distrust of the "common" citizen and differentiate police officers as "law enforcement officers" (something they don't really do) and non-civilians (they are civilians as they aren't in the military). They further dress them up in BDUs or other military camouflage uniforms to perform high risk armed entries into various buildings or to respond to special "tactical" situations. They also support the no-knock entry/serving of warrants. I believe that these things contribute to separating police officers from other citizens in the community as an elite and create/support classes of citizens. This is not compatible with my view of our society.

I have never suggested that anyone attack policemen nor do I support armed insurrection.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:23 am

I have some Law Enforcement time in my background (Correctional Services Officer in State Prison) and while it was not "on the street", I can testify to what Hobie says. There is an "us vs them" attitude - and it's not always on the part of the Police.

It is fostered by media to great extent.

Like anything, there is no blanket that can be thrown over a large group. It's not "one size fits all" guys.

We hate it when all gun-owners are characterized by one yahoo who does something wrong.

Let's remember what some call "The Golden Rule" and treat others like you desire to be treated. It does work.

clubkey · Post by **clubkey** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:17 am

Yes sir, I'm a newbie here and I admit I was pretty awe struck with the general congeniality of the majority of folks here, but this newbie has been around the block once or twice and has learned to recognize those that have a need to poison. Those that haunt the forums and boards of the Intranet searching for any and every opportunity to spew their bile on the rest of us. The Posers who sew discord wherever they lite. I guess I've sorta awakened and realized this ain't Kansas either.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:28 am

Other people's thoughts:

"Never underestimate the will of the downtrodden to lie flatter" - Unknown

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one MAKES them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ... Create a nation of law-breakers, and then you cash in on the guilt."
-- Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged"

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." ~~ Tacitus

"If cops continue to play at being an army of occupation, they should expect the subjects to play their role in return. Vive la resistance." -- J. D. TUCCILLE

I'd be curious to put these various items in their proper context, i.e., history, situation, etc.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:07 pm

ScottT wrote: You do understand that the Legislature makes the laws and law enforcement officers only arrest folks for breaking those laws don't you?

If they made a law saying that all children under 10 should be executed, that would be "THE LAW" yet I hardly would respect any enforcer of that law. It is only a matter of degree from what we have now.

I could never be a cop because I could never threaten someone's life for doing nothing wrong other than disobeying an immoral and often illegal law. Many if not most are able to ride this thin line and be reasonable, but I could not in good conscience ruin someone's life for having a gun with a bayonet lug where it is prohibited, etc.

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:36 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
ScottT wrote: You do understand that the Legislature makes the laws and law enforcement officers only arrest folks for breaking those laws don't you?
I could never be a cop because I could never threaten someone's life for doing nothing wrong other than disobeying an immoral and often illegal law. Many if not most are able to ride this thin line and be reasonable, but I could not in good conscience ruin someone's life for having a gun with a bayonet lug where it is prohibited, etc.

That's the good thing about officer discretion. There are few laws that have a mandatory arrest clause. Kansas has a must arrest statute on domestic violence laws and that is about it.

As a County Sheriff's Deputy, I could not enforce Federal or Municipal laws, only state laws. A lot of people do not know that.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:43 pm

jengel wrote:...That's the good thing about officer discretion. There are few laws that have a mandatory arrest clause. Kansas has a must arrest statute on domestic violence laws and that is about it.

As a County Sheriff's Deputy, I could not enforce Federal or Municipal laws, only state laws. A lot of people do not know that.

See, that is where I got into a big pizzen match with a buch of cops on the police forums over the issue of being a Legal CCW on the Indiana side of a residential street in Hammond and being a "felon" on the Illinois side of the same residential street - and how there is "no discretion" when it comes to Illinois Cops throwing me in jail if I step foot across the yellow line.

FWIW, on the same forum, there is a distinct attitudinal line drawn on RKBA between the Urban Cops, Rural Cops and Retirees, with the R&R Cops being staunchly Pro RKBA and the Urban Cops anywhere from neutral to beligerantly Anti Civilian OWNERSHIP, much less Carry.

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:48 pm

I could tell you what I would do and that ain't it. Officer discretion is one of the best tools that an officer can have. When applied correctly, it will prevent officers from getting hurt and it will keep people that truly did not know of the exact wording of the laws out of jail. I have not arrested people that were on the gray area of the law because I thought it was the morally correct thing to do.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:08 pm

I do not disrespect Police Officers...for any reason. I have ran into a couple of "arrogant idiots" in my life, but most of my dealings have been very positive. I have been pulled over three times in the last few years for going a little too fast, and when they see that "Marine Corps" sticker in my back window, they always give me a "can of slack." I really appreciate it...of course, I don't give them any attitude either...

I got pulled over for doing 110 MPH on my BMW motorcycle in both Alaska and Nevada...In Alaska, a friend was with me and behind me going 95MPH...he had an attitude with the Officers and went to jail...I drove off with a warning and without a ticket.

I got very lucky I figure...he could have taken me to jail! The speed limit was 55mph..

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:25 pm

I have enjoyed reading this thread.
That being said, I must live in Oz, because I have had many interactions with LEOs and none of them were negative. In fact, we have a local radio call-in show where you can ask a cop questions. The LEO made the point just last week that he LIKED CHL citizens because he figured that they would be available to help if he ever got in a tight spot. From my experience his attitude is common among LEOs here.

There's nothing unique about a few bad apples spoiling the barrel. Look at any profession.

Quinn

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:32 pm

pharmseller wrote:I have enjoyed reading this thread.
That being said, I must live in Oz, because I have had many interactions with LEOs and none of them were negative. In fact, we have a local radio call-in show where you can ask a cop questions. The LEO made the point just last week that he LIKED CHL citizens because he figured that they would be available to help if he ever got in a tight spot. From my experience his attitude is common among LEOs here.

There's nothing unique about a few bad apples spoiling the barrel. Look at any profession.

Quinn

As far as I can tell from my interactions on Police Forums, it is largely a matter of "Location, Location, Age, and Location".

Old Guys and Rural/Semi Rural guys tend to be Pro RKBA and calmer.

Urban guys - particularly from places like IL & DC - tend to be Anti RKBA and irritating... sometimes in the extreme.

But then, that pretty much applies to the general population of those places too...

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:57 pm

Well, let me wade in. As my nom de plume clearly states, I am a cop. Just this very fact has some of you spewing venom my way. In my experience this lunacy normally stems from the left wing. I started to respond to several of these flaming posters after reading only their initial posts, but I took the time to read ALL of the posts. I have compiled a list of some of the more outlandish comments, but I am no longer in such a foul mood. I hope I am able to respond without the hatred that been expressed towards my ilk.

First, F Weidner wrote, â€œSo instead of holding oppressive goons responsible for their own actions, it's really society's fault, and we should be more understanding and hold ourselves responsible? Uh....Nope.â€

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:18 pm

[quote="Irish_Cop"]He went on to say, â€œHe (referring to an officer that made a mistake that was rectified) still has his job and he's lowere than a child molester IMO.â€

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:21 pm

[quote="Irish_Cop"]...Old Ironsights wrote, â€œDemilitarize the the Police Uniform. There are plenty of high quality, HIGH profile, Police Issue Only uniforms & Vests that fit under them out there. Why put them into Mall Ninja Suits?â€

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:30 pm

Old Ironsights, I can agree with you and disagree with you respectfully. You seem able to see both sides of the issue...as I try to do. Besides, this is a levergun site. Let's talk about those instead.

Sore Shoulder...it seems you are just plain SORE at law enforcement. There is nothing I can say apparently that will change your mind. So be it. In case you missed it, I wrote, oppressive goons should be held accountable for their actions. Everyone should be held accountable for their actions. The current trend for acceptance of ANYTHING only seems to apply to liberals who want to enjoy a Sodom and Gomorrah, hedonistic lifestyle. You don't seem like a liberal..but you do seem awfully angry at law enforcement.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:39 pm

Irish_Cop wrote:Old Ironsights, I can agree with you and disagree with you respectfully. You seem able to see both sides of the issue...as I try to do.

That's what it's all about. Respectful disagreement and discussion on those points hopefully leading to a resolution.

I agree with some that there are some very worrisome trends in Policing these days. That does not, however, make the individual cops uniformly bad.

Besides, this is a levergun site. Let's talk about those instead. ...

Well, IMO the Peace Officer vs Law Enforcer issue is at least tangentially related to Leverguns in that one of those worrisome trends is seeing how many Officers are anti-RKBA &/or willing to participate in gun confiscation simply because it's "the law".

I would like to think that such an illegal and immoral law would cause a massive outbreak of Blue Flu... but given the discussions I've had on Police Forums, I'm not hopeful.

And that's a shame.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:22 pm

[quote="sore shoulder"][quote="Irish_Cop"]He went on to say, â€œHe (referring to an officer that made a mistake that was rectified) still has his job and he's lowere than a child molester IMO.â€

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:31 pm

Kismet wrote: ... unless your job carries the risk of being shot by anyone you encounter, ...

Every time I have to inspect/measure an empty building in Gary/Hammond... (and sometimes here in town too...) that is a DISTINCT risk. I've had squatting bums pull knives on me when I appeared. I've been lucky enough so far to not walk into a meth lab... (where's my M4?...)

And yes, I am agrieved any time someone says "I'll find somthing" to arrest someone for.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:47 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: The fact that anyone can buy the gear is a problem. IMO Uniforms should NOT be available OTC or on the internet. They should be procured solely and directly through the Department and surrenderable upon discharge. I understand the "comfort" & operational "reasons" for such gear, but for the sake of Oficer Safety, Public Safety and PR, somthing needs to be changed.

Wow OI, that sounds remarkably similar to some other things I have heard - just replace the word "uniforms" with "guns." Are you really suggesting that a major part of crime (or any part) would be reduced if certain uniforms were not available? That sounds to me a lot like one of those wildly unnecessary laws if we were all responsible for our own behavior.

Michael in NH

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:52 pm

Kismet wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: The fact that anyone can buy the gear is a problem. IMO Uniforms should NOT be available OTC or on the internet. They should be procured solely and directly through the Department and surrenderable upon discharge. I understand the "comfort" & operational "reasons" for such gear, but for the sake of Oficer Safety, Public Safety and PR, somthing needs to be changed.
Wow OI, that sounds remarkably similar to some other things I have heard - just replace the word "uniforms" with "guns." Are you really suggesting that a major part of crime (or any part) would be reduced if certain uniforms were not available? That sounds to me a lot like one of those wildly unnecessary laws if we were all responsible for our own behavior.

Michael in NH

Note that I did not say anything about "laws" - just "procurement".

Nobody is going to make knock-off cop gear to match a single department simply because it wouldn't be profitable.

I don't care WHAT the 'bangers can buy. I just don't want Police Procurement to buy the same stuff. That has nothing to do with laws, just good internal policy. If "my department" signs a contract ith a uniform maker to provide me with a unique uniform - that is not available, by copyright or whatever, to any other person, then no laws are required to keep the goblins from posing as cops.

But thank you for completely misrepresenting what I had to say.