OT - bashing cops, etc

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OT - bashing cops, etc

Post by AmBraCol »

Lately I've noticed a tendency on the forum to bash all law enforcement officers for the actions of some. This is a worrisome trend and although I understand WHY folks distrust people in uniform it is something that needs to be addressed. It does not behoove a fair man to use of a broad brush in characterizing any group of people. Yes, there is a disturbing trend in our law enforcement circles to take upon themselves powers not granted to them by the US Constitution. And yes there is a disturbing trend towards militarization of our police forces. And yes there is a disturbing trend towards an "Us vs Them" attitude amongst those who are charged with enforcing our society's laws. However, there are also many good men who wear the uniform and who put their lives on the line daily in an attempt to reign in the criminal element that lives amongst us.

Over the years I've seen abuses committed by people in other walks of life as well. The priest, preacher or other religious figure who abuses his position for personal gain or sexual gratification is beneath contempt. The teacher or professor who hands out good grades in exchange for sexual favors is likewise the scum of the earth. And yet we realize that these are the exceptions to the rule. In the same way, the person who utilizes a firearm to commit a crime is despicable - but in no way is he representative of the majority of the gun owning public.

Just as in any profession, the bad apple gets the press. Those who use a badge to bully and intimidate are the ones who get all the attention. What about those who are doing their best to do the right thing?

The old adage of "walk a mile in their shoes" is one that we should take into consideration. When the cop pulls over a vehicle he doesn't know if he's going to find a parish priest late to mass, a soccer mom talking on a phone or a serial killer with a gun in hand and a corpse in the trunk - or just John Q. Public with a chip on his shoulder and disdain for the man behind the badge. The cop, by the very nature of his job, gets to focus in on the seamier side of life. His job is to deal with those who break the law. And since that is what he sees the most he may very well begin to believe that ALL people are that way. This does not excuse him, but it does help one to understand WHY he has become what he has become.

Some of my friends are either currently serving in law enforcement or have been in law enforcement. To a man they are honest citizens who's only concern is to do a good job and get home at night to the wife and kids - alive. I believe they are representative of the majority of law enforcement. And my friends are NOT the ones who will kick down doors to enforce anti-constitutional laws and mandates. However, they are also members of smaller town and city departments where folks still have the basic values upon which our nation was founded.

We are at a critical time in our nation's history. For too long we have sought to improve our society via human philosophies rather than solid Godly principles. And we are reaping the results thereof. We've taught folks that there is no personal responsibility and then wonder why our corts are clogged with "not my fault" suits. We have taught that criminals have more rights than tax paying citizens and then wonder why our streets run red with blood. We turn repeat violent offenders out on the streets and punish the law abiding for the crimes the perps commit.

In other words, the perceived problems in law enforcement circles are mere symptoms of the greater ills suffered throughout our entire society. Rather than bashing all police officers for the actions of the over zealous and overbearing jack booted thugs that some are, why not seek positive steps to turn our nation back to a better time? We need good men to step up and fill the ranks of our legislative, executive and judicial branches of government on all levels. We need good men to step forward and fill the ranks of law enforcement and military positions. We need good men to step forward and fill the ranks of our educational establishments. The problem is that there are fewer and fewer good men because too many have taken the position that there's no such thing as good and bad.

The problem is that we bash law enforcement for the ills that our entire society are guilty of. Instead of scapegoating all cops for the actions of those who abuse their position, why don't we take responsibility for the changes that we as individuals can make in society - and make a difference by our example?

My question now is, how will you react to this post? I guess that only time will tell. :) I've got my flame retardant firewall installed, let the festivities begin.
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Post by FWiedner »

So instead of holding oppressive goons responsible for their own actions, it's really society's fault, and we should be more understanding and hold ourselves responsible?

Uh....Nope.

:?
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Post by Boreman »

Excellent post. It is a good reminder that there is good and bad in all segments of society ,but it does not make that entire group "bad" I think we have to look at the general good in things and give them the benafit of the doubt. Well said sir. Thanks !!!!!
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Post by Old Ironsights »

I do not bash Police Officers, Peace Officers, or any other member of the varying Public Safety departments out there who understand the difference between being a Good Cop and being a Chicago Style Enforcer.

Laws do not need to be "enforced". That implies that the public would not obey without a boot on their neck.

Tracking down and punishing Criminals for crimes committed is not "enforcement", it is Justice.

Trying to "prevent" crime by sending out "enforcers" is not Justice - it's Mob Tactics.

Big difference.

God Bless Peace Officers. I wish there were more of them.
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Post by AmBraCol »

FWiedner wrote:So instead of holding oppressive goons responsible for their own actions, it's really society's fault, and we should be more understanding and hold ourselves responsible?

Uh....Nope.

:?

Never said that. Read again. BUT I don't believe you like being held responsible for the actions of criminal elements, please correct me if I'm wrong. The asinine gun laws in force around our nation hold US responsible for the actions of the violent. This is not fair nor is it right. And neither is it fair or right to hold all cops responsible for the actions of the jackbooted goons.

And yes, we SHOULD be more understanding and we SHOULD be responsible for what we say and do to influence our society for positive change.
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Post by sore shoulder »

If the "good cops" are not speaking out against the "bad cops", if any cop enforces laws that are unConstitutional (fact:most do) and hides behind "just doing muh job", why should we be silent? I hold those who hold us accountable even more accountable, they do not, they hold themselves less accountable. How can you say it's just a few bad apples? That is not a true statement. These are no longer isolated incidents. Not when You have a Police Chief slapping the hand of his officver who should be arressted and fired, just as that same officer would have arrested any of us for false imprisonment. There is an unmistakeable double standard, one for them, one for us. This thread is an indication of either naivete, or some cop on the board crying to the management.

I in fact do hold all law enforcement responsible, because they allow it. They do not speak out, and we are the victims. So, it is us against them, and they have made it that way. It is not going to get better, it's going to get worse, and this post is a big indicator of why, because some people refuse to accept the facts. Facts that were even enumerated in the original post.

Is this censure because someone complained? I have not seen any unwarranted "bashing". What I have seen are threads containing information about abuse, and the resulting sharing of opinions and experiences, which all seem to mirror each other.

I am suspicious as to the impetus for this thread. It really is pathetic.
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Post by KirkD »

AmBraCol, I agree. Only a simple-minded person generalizes from a few bad apples to the conclusion that they are all bad apples. Wiedner's post demonstrates such simple minded 'thinking'. I have several friends and relatives who are LEO's and not a one are 'oppressive goons'. Quite the opposite ..... they try to make ethical decisions, they use their own discretion, and they know when to come down hard and when to give a person a break. They have a doggone frustrating job that includes handling so much bovine garden fertilizer that it staggers the imagination. I ride with one of my friends from time to time because he greatly appreciates the support of me just being there. I've seen enough to tell you that I have to greatly admire the man for keeping his cool and hanging in there for over 35 years. I have to say that when I hear someone calling my friend a 'oppressive goon' I have an almost overpowering urge to take care of that comment the same way I used to back in grade school on the playground. Thank goodness I've grown up a bit to be able to restrain myself (most of the time) and I dearly wish, Wiedner, that you would show a bit more restraint with some of your comments.

P.S. I do agree with Sore Shoulder that we need to hold accountable those LEO's that are the bad apples (and I do know a few of those as well)
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Post by Modoc ED »

I am one who has bashed Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) of late. I did bash LEOs with a broad brush and perhaps the brush was too broad; however, as time passes more and more incidents of LEOs performing badly comes to the forefront.

The bane of LEOs now-a-days is the video camera and camera cell phones. That I believe is the reason for the increased exposure of misdeeds by LEOs. Many times when those "captured" incidents are exposed AND proven, LEOs are not held accountable for their actions and frankly that is just plain wrong. Other misdeeds of LEOs are exposed on forums as was the incident reported here the other day about one of our members being hassled at a Wal-Mart for carrying his gun openly because the LEO in question did not know the law.

Overall, I actually support Law Enforcement and should I ever see a LEO in need of assistance, I would go to his/her assistance. They have a tough job and on the whole do a good job.

As I said in my opening paragraph, perhaps I paint with too broad a brush but these days LEOs provide a lot of paint to paint with.
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Post by AmBraCol »

sore shoulder wrote:If the "good cops" are not speaking out against the "bad cops", if any cop enforces laws that are unConstitutional (fact:most do) and hides behind "just doing muh job", why should we be silent? I hold those who hold us accountable even more accountable, they do not, they hold themselves less accountable. How can you say it's just a few bad apples? That is not a true statement. These are no longer isolated incidents. Not when You have a Police Chief slapping the hand of his officver who should be arressted and fired, just as that same officer would have arrested any of us for false imprisonment. There is an unmistakeable double standard, one for them, one for us. This thread is an indication of either naivete, or some cop on the board crying to the management.

I in fact do hold all law enforcement responsible, because they allow it. They do not speak out, and we are the victims. So, it is us against them, and they have made it that way. It is not going to get better, it's going to get worse, and this post is a big indicator of why, because some people refuse to accept the facts. Facts that were even enumerated in the original post.

Is this censure because someone complained? I have not seen any unwarranted "bashing". What I have seen are threads containing information about abuse, and the resulting sharing of opinions and experiences, which all seem to mirror each other.

I am suspicious as to the impetus for this thread. It really is pathetic.

Pathetic is not being consistent with your reasoning. If we're going to hold all cops responsible for the actions of those who break the law, then we've got to do the same on all levels of society. Let's hold all doctors responsible for acts of malpractice that are fairly common. Let's hold all gun owners responsible for the deaths of uneducated children. Let's... etc, etc, etc.

Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that this site is owned by an ex-cop. And the webmaster is an ex-cop. And there are many on the forum who are currently serving in various positions in law enforcement. BUT THIS POST IS MINE - NO ONE PUT WORDS IN MY "MOUTH". To imply that someone's bringing pressure on me to write what I did is to show ignorance of who I am and what I think - which is fine as I don't know you either. :D

Again, walk a mile in the shoes of a good police officer. That way you'll know whereof you speak.

At no time did I say we should not hold folks accountable - but WE SHOULD NOT HOLD ACCOUNTABLE THE INNOCENT FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE GUILTY.

I personally know a creep that is an ordained minister and is a pedophile. Are you going to hold me accountable for his actions? If I could I'd see him hung for what he has done, am I guilty therefore of his crimes? Apparently you think so, by extending your reasoning out to include other professions. I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm pretty sure I can find folks who do it poorly, incompetently or illegally - should we then hold YOU responsible for their actions? I think NOT. In the same way, to hold all police around the US responsible for those who are out of control is asinine. We need to bring pressure to bear locally to effect change. If a local police chief is not holding his men responsible for their actions then HE should be held responsible. There are mechanisms in place for this and we should use them. BUT blaming all for the actions of some is asinine at best. It is the same type of mentality that stereotypes and oppresses and is the same mentality used by the abusers of their authority to classify all us "civilians" as "the enemy". That attitude doesn't look any better on us than it does on them.
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Post by Old Savage »

Cops get blamed when they over step their bounds. The entire college police force here was recently disbanded for this. Guns drawn traffic stops, etc. etc. but I know a lot of cops and am related to two - they are all good.
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Post by AmBraCol »

Modoc ED wrote: Other misdeeds of LEOs are exposed on forums as was the incident reported here the other day about one of our members being hassled at a Wal-Mart for carrying his gun openly because the LEO in question did not know the law.
Again, I'm not saying "Give 'em all a pass" on whatever misdeeds and idiocy they commit. But neither should we lump them all together. I believe that certain folks should be held to a higher standard, and I do so to myself as well. Anyone in a position of authority should be held accountable for THEIR actions - but not for those of others. It's tough enough to do a good job without having to answer for the misdeeds of others.
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Post by KirkD »

There can be a major problem with accountability if the LEO must abide by certain requirements. The police force that the friend I spoke of earlier has many, serious internal problems and there are many of his colleagues that are, quite plainly, corrupt. We have discussed this on various occasions and what to do about it. Front and center is that LEO's in his police force (and it is a large one) are not permitted make public statements about internal police problems. It is against the rules and there are serious consequences if one does, so the good officers do what they can within the system. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. The one friend that I ride with recommends to the public the procedure to use if a cop is out of line (who to call, what to say, etc.). When that happens, serious action is taken against the LEO who did it. Unfortunately, as more of the public realize what can happen, frivolous and outrageous complaints are being filed as a way to 'get back' at the cop who wrote out the speeding ticket, or whatever. He tells me that no matter how obviously ridiculous the complaint is, a full inquiry must always be carried out that makes the LEO's life a living misery for several months until a verdict is arrived at. I will admit that there is a serious accountability problem, but it is very discouraging and frustrating for a good LEO to be broad-brushed because of the misdeeds of a bad LEO. Single out the one who is bad and zero in on him. LEO's like my friend do not want those kinds of cops and want them out. Unfortunately, the bad ones want my friend out. It's real life, just like any where else.

An improved accountability would take out the bad ones, and make the job easier for the good ones.
Last edited by KirkD on Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Griff »

Thank you Paul. Very well said, you sure you ain't a lawyer? :lol: :P
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Re: OT - bashing cops, etc

Post by Slick13 »

I don't bash cops. They have a difficult job, that gets tougher every day. They deserve our respect for their service.

But from what I've been able to observe of several local police forces, new, younger, cops deserve a watchful eye. From arrogant thuggish behavior, to possible steriod use, the public needs to keep an eye on those who's job is to protect and serve, not bully, threaten and abuse.

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Post by PaperPatch »

Ignorance of the law is no defense.
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Post by AmBraCol »

Griff wrote:Thank you Paul. Very well said, you sure you ain't a lawyer? :lol: :P
Yep. I'm sure. However, I HAVE considered studying law. I'm always reading and studying anyway, so a bit of direction (such as towards a law degree) might be a good thing. Then I could get bashed on a wider variety of issues, eh? :shock: :D 8)
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Post by sore shoulder »

AmBraCol wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:If the "good cops" are not speaking out against the "bad cops", if any cop enforces laws that are unConstitutional (fact:most do) and hides behind "just doing muh job", why should we be silent? I hold those who hold us accountable even more accountable, they do not, they hold themselves less accountable. How can you say it's just a few bad apples? That is not a true statement. These are no longer isolated incidents. Not when You have a Police Chief slapping the hand of his officver who should be arressted and fired, just as that same officer would have arrested any of us for false imprisonment. There is an unmistakeable double standard, one for them, one for us. This thread is an indication of either naivete, or some cop on the board crying to the management.

I in fact do hold all law enforcement responsible, because they allow it. They do not speak out, and we are the victims. So, it is us against them, and they have made it that way. It is not going to get better, it's going to get worse, and this post is a big indicator of why, because some people refuse to accept the facts. Facts that were even enumerated in the original post.

Is this censure because someone complained? I have not seen any unwarranted "bashing". What I have seen are threads containing information about abuse, and the resulting sharing of opinions and experiences, which all seem to mirror each other.

I am suspicious as to the impetus for this thread. It really is pathetic.

Pathetic is not being consistent with your reasoning. If we're going to hold all cops responsible for the actions of those who break the law, then we've got to do the same on all levels of society. Let's hold all doctors responsible for acts of malpractice that are fairly common. Let's hold all gun owners responsible for the deaths of uneducated children. Let's... etc, etc, etc.

Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that this site is owned by an ex-cop. And the webmaster is an ex-cop. And there are many on the forum who are currently serving in various positions in law enforcement. BUT THIS POST IS MINE - NO ONE PUT WORDS IN MY "MOUTH". To imply that someone's bringing pressure on me to write what I did is to show ignorance of who I am and what I think - which is fine as I don't know you either. :D

Again, walk a mile in the shoes of a good police officer. That way you'll know whereof you speak.

At no time did I say we should not hold folks accountable - but WE SHOULD NOT HOLD ACCOUNTABLE THE INNOCENT FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE GUILTY.

I personally know a creep that is an ordained minister and is a pedophile. Are you going to hold me accountable for his actions? If I could I'd see him hung for what he has done, am I guilty therefore of his crimes? Apparently you think so, by extending your reasoning out to include other professions. I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm pretty sure I can find folks who do it poorly, incompetently or illegally - should we then hold YOU responsible for their actions? I think NOT. In the same way, to hold all police around the US responsible for those who are out of control is asinine. We need to bring pressure to bear locally to effect change. If a local police chief is not holding his men responsible for their actions then HE should be held responsible. There are mechanisms in place for this and we should use them. BUT blaming all for the actions of some is asinine at best. It is the same type of mentality that stereotypes and oppresses and is the same mentality used by the abusers of their authority to classify all us "civilians" as "the enemy". That attitude doesn't look any better on us than it does on them.

I'm very aware of Pacos and others LE background. I'm also aware that the type of person that is the average LE is completely different, which is the current problem.

I am also aware that you have used many exceptions to the rule in your analogies above, something I never give crediibility. Thuggish cops however are not the exception. You are witnessing on this forum the public perception of a problem, one you have passed off as being our fault. So it's our fault we are victims? And we are the ones charged with changing it? How are we to change something so metastitized with corruption? Your suggestion is we use some sort of good Karma thing to get it back?

Your post may have been well written, but it was not well thought out nor well said. I am personally insulted that you would even infer it is somehow our responsibility for anothers actions. Reminds me of the story where the family is assaulted and the Democrat sits there asking if there is something we could have changed about the childhood of the criminal.

When we have a rat infestation, we don't deliberate about the upbringing of the rats.

As to walking a mile, most of these new cops haven't even walked a mile in any shoes, and thats the problem. They have no real life experience. They are given a badge and gun and told they are in charge. No good result can come from that.

As to how "hard" or "challenging" thier job may be, I'm really apathetic. No one forced them to become cops. I personally don't want them sticking their nose in my business. They can go protect little old ladies and defenceless women and children. Unfortunately they are too busy writing tickets and summons for victimless crimes.
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Post by Grizz »

Paul, Frank has a point. He's showing the perception many folks hold, public civilian citizens have this perception.

I think there are good law-abiding cops around who aren't a threat to me. But I haven't met any of them, so I keep my fingers crossed.


Even though I think of myself as being on the side of law and order, and thus a friend to LEOs. It would be great if I could believe it's a two way street.

I don't think there's much I can do to change that picture.
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Post by AmBraCol »

sore shoulder wrote:Your post may have been well written, but it was not well thought out nor well said. I am personally insulted that you would even infer it is somehow our responsibility for anothers actions.

Sore shoulder, THAT ONE TAKES THE PRIZE!!!!

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You're insulted that I would infer that you're responsible for another's actions (which I have not) and yet you freely blame all police everywhere for the publicized actions of others.

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What I said is that we are responsible for turning back the tide. And YES, we as a society are responsible for the mess we are in. Nothing to do with karma, it's a matter of principle. We've gone the easy path too long. it's time to turn around and start climbing out of the pit we've slid into. And believe it or not, each time one of us makes a difference in another's life in a positive way, we're creating a better society. When we instill morals and Godly principles in our kids and prepare them to become police officers, soldiers, doctors, lawyers or whatever - we're creating a better society. We can't turn it around in a day, a week or a year - but we CAN turn it around if we'll stop using broad brushes and start doing our little bit to improve things. And if that means pressing until some out of line corrupt cop's head is on a pike, so be it. But the good ol' "do unto others as you would have them to unto you" applies. Hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others - don't blame individuals for the actions of other individuals.

Yep, I'm STILL cracking up over that one...

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Post by AmBraCol »

Grizz wrote:Paul, Frank has a point. He's showing the perception many folks hold, public civilian citizens have this perception.

I think there are good law-abiding cops around who aren't a threat to me. But I haven't met any of them, so I keep my fingers crossed.


Even though I think of myself as being on the side of law and order, and thus a friend to LEOs. It would be great if I could believe it's a two way street.

I don't think there's much I can do to change that picture.
Don't get me wrong, if I get pulled over I'm on my guard. And I get pulled over a LOT down here. Shucks, if y'all are worried about what's going on up there, imagine down here where the police force IS a military force AND they can stop and frisk you anytime, anywhere for any reason. And the saying about "a dime a dozen" comes pretty close to what you can get away with - if you grease the palm with next to nothing. BUT again, there's good men on the force here too in spite of the corruption. I still am very guarded no matter what continent I'm on or what state I'm in. But I refuse to accuse all for the actions of some. My personal experience has been that if I'm polite things go well. Even though I'm careful and guarded the officer of the law is greeted politely and with a smile - amazing what a positive attitude can do for interaction between people.

Again, true, lasting change would/will very well take us decades - but it's doable if we as a society decide we want to do it.
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Post by sore shoulder »

AmBraCol wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Your post may have been well written, but it was not well thought out nor well said. I am personally insulted that you would even infer it is somehow our responsibility for anothers actions.

Sore shoulder, THAT ONE TAKES THE PRIZE!!!!

Image

You're insulted that I would infer that you're responsible for another's actions (which I have not) and yet you freely blame all police everywhere for the publicized actions of others.

Image

What I said is that we are responsible for turning back the tide. And YES, we as a society are responsible for the mess we are in. Nothing to do with karma, it's a matter of principle. We've gone the easy path too long. it's time to turn around and start climbing out of the pit we've slid into. And believe it or not, each time one of us makes a difference in another's life in a positive way, we're creating a better society. When we instill morals and Godly principles in our kids and prepare them to become police officers, soldiers, doctors, lawyers or whatever - we're creating a better society. We can't turn it around in a day, a week or a year - but we CAN turn it around if we'll stop using broad brushes and start doing our little bit to improve things. And if that means pressing until some out of line corrupt cop's head is on a pike, so be it. But the good ol' "do unto others as you would have them to unto you" applies. Hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others - don't blame individuals for the actions of other individuals.

Yep, I'm STILL cracking up over that one...

Image

So if there is a problem, don''t you think the first step should be to point out the problem and make others aware of it, instead of minimizing it with emotional rhetoric and basically ignoring the size of the problem?

Yes, I blame the entity charged with "enforcing the law" when it is not enforced against their own. who else should I blame, the Plumbers Union?


The victimization of citizens by paramilitary police is no laughing matter sir.
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Post by sore shoulder »

AmBraCol wrote:[ Shucks, if y'all are worried about what's going on up there, imagine down here where the police force IS a military force AND they can stop and frisk you anytime, anywhere for any reason. And the saying about "a dime a dozen" comes pretty close to what you can get away with - if you grease the palm with next to nothing. .
I didn't realize you lived in LA.
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Post by AmBraCol »

sore shoulder wrote:
AmBraCol wrote:Your post may have been well written, but it was not well thought out nor well said. I am personally insulted that you would even infer it is somehow our responsibility for anothers actions.
So if there is a problem, don''t you think the first step should be to point out the problem and make others aware of it, instead of minimizing it with emotional rhetoric and basically ignoring the size of the problem?

Yes, I blame the entity charged with "enforcing the law" when it is not enforced against their own. who else should I blame, the Plumbers Union?


The victimization of citizens by paramilitary police is no laughing matter sir.

No, no, no - the laughing matter is the way you hold others to a different standard than yourself. THAT"S the laughing matter. At no time have I said that bad apples should be given a pass. Where have I said we shouldn't take up the issues? On the other hand, to summarize my original post in a way you may be able to grasp,

"Bashing all the members of any particular group for the actions of some members of that group does a disservice to the members of the group who are not guilty of those actions."

And what cracked me up is that you then cried "Foul!" when you assumed that I was somehow blaming you for other people's actions. THAT'S what's the laughing matter - you want it both ways!!!
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Post by AmBraCol »

sore shoulder wrote:
AmBraCol wrote:[ Shucks, if y'all are worried about what's going on up there, imagine down here where the police force IS a military force AND they can stop and frisk you anytime, anywhere for any reason. And the saying about "a dime a dozen" comes pretty close to what you can get away with - if you grease the palm with next to nothing. .
I didn't realize you lived in LA.

Nope. If you think that describes LA then you've never seen the conditions under which I live.
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Post by sore shoulder »

[quote="AmBraCol

And what cracked me up is that you then cried "Foul!" when you assumed that I was somehow blaming you for other people's actions. THAT'S what's the laughing matter - you want it both ways!!![/quote]

I did not cry foul, however I think it is absurd for you to suggest we can change this problem with "feel good" intervention. Here is an example of the size of the probelm. Read and weep.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/dmv- ... am-records
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Post by Rexster »

Thanks, Paul. I tend not to respond to cop-bashing posts, but have certainly noticed the recent increase in such posts on this and other forums. I have been wearing a big-city police badge for 24 years, and overall, I think the level of professionalism has risen during that time. Loose cannons tend to be weeded out more quickly than before. I do my part, as a field trainer and field performance evaluator, to provide an example of respect for civil liberties and placing a strong emphasis on the PEACE aspect of "peace officering," while being prepared to use reasonable yet firm force when necessary.

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Post by Leverdude »

Never said that. Read again. BUT I don't believe you like being held responsible for the actions of criminal elements,
Was a good post Paul. I agree there are alot of good cops out there. I have friends in law enforcement that I believe are in to make a positive difference.

But, we ARE held liable because of the actions of criminals. Thats the reasons behind gun control & a multitude of other laws & restraints.

What bothers me is not so much that theres bad cops. Its that when we hear of a thing where theres obvious abuses of power it never seems like its the law enforcement community thats outraged beyond trying to pass the buck.

When katrina hapenned gun rights groups made noise, where were all the good cops giving press conferences condemning the actions of the bad cops? In the more recent cases of abuse why dont we hear of an uproar by the law enforcement community?

I know theres good cops & theres bad cops & if your a good small town cop that has nothing to do with this stuff theres no reason to be offended or bothered. But if your a good NO cop that didn't take peoples property your still wrong for not arresting the ones that did. Every good cop should get upset & try to prevent these things. Looking the other way is as bad as doing it. Like gun laws in places such as NYC & DC. Cops have been charging people for felonies just for having a gun. I know, its the law so its ok right? Well if thats justification then what about an order or law to stay in after dark? A law to dictate religion or whatever? Sounds extreme but theres no real difference. Or maybe an officer is thinking that in his juristiction that aint a crime so its not his problem. Except it is, because the guy will now have a felony conviction & if he comes into your juristiction you'll arrest him foe felony posession of a gun.

The end result is you have one subgroup of special folks held to a different set of rules & those not in that group arent going to like it much.

It becomes that subgroups responsability to police its own ranks & hold its members to a HIGHER standard of behaviour, not to protect & cover it up when one of them, or a bunch of them go astray. The best fraternities dont tolerate unsuitable members & root them out with a vengance. One that desires the respect of the rest of society needs to earn it. Individually I can point to many officers & say they earned my respect. On the whole, as an institution, I think law enforcement in the USA is pretty abusive & lacking substantial liability for its actions.

We need the general law enforcement community to admit this double standard is a reality & its unacceptable before people will change their minds. Its a learned behaviour.
I know if I'm going 80MPH I can get passed by a cop going 90 & his buddy will pull me over & wave to him. I know a cop with a gun will put me in jail for having a gun even if I'm not hurting anybody.
I know theres alot of things I'll get screwed for that a badge protects against. Thats not right.

Those are the things that create the us against them attitude. Its not false & its not misplaced, its there because people get treated differently if they wear a badge than if they dont & it'll be there as long as thats how it is.
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Post by sureshot »

Great post leverdude, I agree 100%.

I don't think bad cops are so much a product of society, but of their own system in which they know that their "brothers" will protect them or at least look the other way.

Bad citizens go to jail. Bad cops go on "paid administative leave" :cry:
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Thanks Rexter for doing your part to create Peace Officers.

I'm hopeful the new Super in Chicago will actually fix some of the systemic problems here...

But then, we just had the Chief in Gary indited too... :roll:
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Post by AmBraCol »

Leverdude wrote:
Never said that. Read again. BUT I don't believe you like being held responsible for the actions of criminal elements,
But, we ARE held liable because of the actions of criminals. Thats the reasons behind gun control & a multitude of other laws & restraints.

My point exactly - and since WE don't like it we should not pay others with the same coin.

The end result is you have one subgroup of special folks held to a different set of rules & those not in that group arent going to like it much.
And that is the point I've been attempting to make in some of my answers above - there should be one set of rules for everyone, no matter if they are police officers or not. We can't just bash cops and not bash everyone else too. I maintain that we've allowed our legislators to help create the current state of affairs. We've got to get serious about bringing change and that's not going to happen by merely bashing cops. At the place where my wife works there's a very common sense rule when it comes to pointing out problems. It's simple. For each problem you go to complain about to management you are to bring two possible solutions to that problem. It cuts down on bashing and opens doors for change.
It becomes that subgroups responsability to police its own ranks & hold its members to a HIGHER standard of behaviour, not to protect & cover it up when one of them, or a bunch of them go astray. The best fraternities dont tolerate unsuitable members & root them out with a vengance. One that desires the respect of the rest of society needs to earn it. Individually I can point to many officers & say they earned my respect. On the whole, as an institution, I think law enforcement in the USA is pretty abusive & lacking substantial liability for its actions.
Fair enough. So, how can we go about shaking up the institution and restoring the respectability it once held?

I know if I'm going 80MPH I can get passed by a cop going 90 & his buddy will pull me over & wave to him. I know a cop with a gun will put me in jail for having a gun even if I'm not hurting anybody.
I know theres alot of things I'll get screwed for that a badge protects against. Thats not right.
That's right, it's not right. So how do we effect a change?

Those are the things that create the us against them attitude. Its not false & its not misplaced, its there because people get treated differently if they wear a badge than if they dont & it'll be there as long as thats how it is.

And that's not going to change as long as our society does not change. Cops don't come from outer space - they come from amongst us. And we, as a people, have created a society in which such attitudes can flourish.
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Post by kimwcook »

I don’t normally respond or get involved with cop bashing posts. But I can longer stand back in good conscience and remain silent. During the time I’m writing this I suspect the post direction will change and when I post it’ll be totally irrelevant. But here goes.

Cops being too militaristic: In my experience 80% of the law enforcement I know are former military. Yes we’re quasi-military. We wear uniforms, we carry firearms and we respond to situations tactically and some times with military movements. We march and salute when appropriate. We have honor guards. Militaristic, yep. I don’t know how else you’d get people to follow orders and do the things we do without paralleling military type actions.

Law enforcement won’t stand up for what’s right: The story I’m about to tell is from almost twenty years ago mind you and I haven’t changed a bit, nor would I want to. All I have is my integrity and if I lose that I’m done.

I’d just been hired full time and was riding with a field training officer (FTO) while waiting my academy slot. This particular swing shift was really hopping. The largest municipality was requesting assistance for their shift sergeant responding to a domestic violence assault (DV). We responded. When we arrived we contacted the older brother who I’d gone to school with. His younger brother was highly intoxicated and was in a fighting mood. They’d gotten into it and the brother was now yelling at us from the front porch of his mother’s house. The sergeant and my FTO are going to contact the younger brother, I was to stay with the older brother and their cousin. The cousin was a juvenile corrections officer. When the sarge and my FTO contact the brother the fights on within minutes. They go down onto the concrete front porch. The cousin yells “Noâ€
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Post by Old Ironsights »

AmBraCol wrote: ...That's right, it's not right. So how do we effect a change?
One way/place to begin is by de-militarize the Local & State Police UNIFORMS.

Cops are not supposed to be Military, and the Military are not supposed to be Cops.

"Back in the day" you could tell whether or not the guys kicking in your door were Cops or Hoods... because the Hoods didn't have ready access to COp Gear.

Now that everybody wears Ninja Gear there is NO WAY TO KNOW if you are the victim of a criminal Home Invasion or the victim of an "oops" by the local SWAT team?
Image
The reality is, if you hesitate, you die, and if you don't hesitate - and shoot a cop - you die.

Demilitarize the the Police Uniform. There are plenty of high quality, HIGH profile, Police Issue Only uniforms & Vests that fit under them out there. Why put them into Mall Ninja Suits?
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Post by sore shoulder »

These SWAT type entries need to be stopped entirely and re-evaluated. The '"hey might flush it" reasoning is not good enough, because if they have so little they can flush it, why are they going after them so hard? That is not worth an innocents life. No knocks have proven to be a hazard to law abiding citizens due to the over aggressive application, and under aggressive procurement of good information on targets. Lax procedures that would never be an acceptable excuse for a citizen are considered a valid excuse even if an innocent civilian dies in one of these no knocks.

Oops, wrong house, sorry grandma is dead, just doin muh job ma'am.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

kimwcook: Thanks for being one of the good guys.

I don't take issue with anything that you said, except in that you did not read far enough into my "enforcement vs punishment/justice" analogy.

I have no problem with punishing the guilty. I have trouble with the fact that people who are prone to bad behavior use "enforcement" as an excuse to repress.

The only way for anyone to "enforce" anything is to stand over someone else with a club while they are doing everything.

That's not what the Police are tasked to do. They come in and clean up the mess and look for the guilty. Very rarely do you guys have the opportunity to get involved with a crime in the act - when you CAN "enforce the law".

That is the entire principle behind defensive CCW. Only I can "enforce" the idea that assault me is wrong. Unless you are with me at al times, all you can do is "Police" - i.e. clean up - the mess and look for the perpetrator.
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Post by sore shoulder »

kimwcook wrote: I look up to see the sergeant just pounding the younger brother in the face with his right hand. The younger brother is cuffed behind his back on his knees with his face on the concrete porch. There’s no give so his orbital shatters. I wrote it up in my report and faced a civil service hearing that I was barbecued for close to an hour straight by the civil service commission and the sergeants two attorneys during his termination hearing. He kept his job but the city paid thousands to the younger brother.

Code blue didn’t fly that day and will never if I see something wrong.

on.
He still has his job and he's lowere than a child molester IMO. I doubt that was the first time, the last time, and that he doesn't represent a cross section of officers mentality. If I handcuffed someone and beat the stuff out of them, I'd never see the light of day again.
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Post by sore shoulder »

kimwcook wrote:Militaristic, yep. I don’t know how else you’d get people to follow orders and do the things we do without paralleling military type actions. .
Tell me exactly why that should not alarm me.
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Post by kimwcook »

Sore shoulder wrote:
Tell me exactly why that should not alarm me.
Example;

Sergeant: Well troops were going to have to go into that school and get the people responsible for shooting it up, killing seven and wounding 25. We've exhausted all options. Now remember we can't use military type tactics so we have to bull rush it. You all ready? And remember, try not to shoot each other, don't get trapped anywhere,

Half the troops: No Sergeant, kiss my a**. They've got guns, it's cold, dark and scary, and I could get hurt or worse killed. Why should we risk our necks for people who don't appreciate us. We don't have any plans in the play book because they might resemble military type tactics.

Sore shoulder you need discipline in times of severe stress. And that looks some what militaristic. I honestly don't know what it would look like other wise. There's a reason why military type discipline works when your under stress and have to achieve a mission.

Just for your information the tactics law enforcement currently uses for urban tactics was put together by law enforcement and now is being taught to the military for MOUT.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

I have no problems with military dicipline. It provides an orderly foundation for operational consistency.

I just think that the Unions &/or FOP are doing both their members AND the Public a disservice by not telling the Mall Ninja Outfitters where to get off.

It's bad for officer safety and it's bad for public safety when it is hard to tell a group of gangbangers from a SERT team.

What ever happened to good old blue or tan uniform shirts?
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Post by sore shoulder »

kimwcook wrote:Sore shoulder wrote:
Tell me exactly why that should not alarm me.
Example;

Sergeant: Well troops were going to have to go into that school and get the people responsible for shooting it up, killing seven and wounding 25. We've exhausted all options. Now remember we can't use military type tactics so we have to bull rush it. You all ready? And remember, try not to shoot each other, don't get trapped anywhere,

Half the troops: No Sergeant, kiss my a**. They've got guns, it's cold, dark and scary, and I could get hurt or worse killed. Why should we risk our necks for people who don't appreciate us. We don't have any plans in the play book because they might resemble military type tactics.

Sore shoulder you need discipline in times of severe stress. And that looks some what militaristic. I honestly don't know what it would look like other wise. There's a reason why military type discipline works when your under stress and have to achieve a mission.

Just for your information the tactics law enforcement currently uses for urban tactics was put together by law enforcement and now is being taught to the military for MOUT.

As a currently serving soldier in an infantry unit, I'm well aware of everything you just said.

Using a SWAT team to rescue kids from a school is once again an exception used to establish a rule. It is the proper application of such a unit, but more and more this type of unit is being used for day to day warrant service. Also, those members of the SWAT team are there precisely for that reason, and are probably not the type to do as you describe. Neither would an infantyman. Now you put a clerk in a rifle platoon and you will have a different story, but I digress. The problem is, most of the cops now want to be seen as "high speed, low drag operator" types, and not "peace officers". It shows by the black fatigues and combat boots on regular patrol officers.
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Post by Blaine »

Frank, you'd go ballistic if someone compared you to one of the few bad eggs in the military....... Do you think you are doing the same thing, Bro?
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Post by Old Ironsights »

sore shoulder wrote: ... The problem is, most of the cops now want to be seen as "high speed, low drag operator" types, and not "peace officers". It shows by the black fatigues and combat boots on regular patrol officers.
I'd not say that... I'd say:

MANY of the cops now, PARTICULARLY THE YOUNG ONES, want to be seen as "high speed, low drag operator" types, and not "peace officers"...

As for Fatigue PANTS & Combat Boots... well, I wear combat boots more often than I wear running shoes or even my sandles. I wear my Jungles from Fall Rainfalll to Spring Rainfall. I have no more comfortable, useful shoe.

Black fatigue pants, by themselves, are simply useful pants.

It's when the rest of the Mall Ninja gear is strapped on that things get freaky.
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Post by Hillbilly »

the sins of the bad 10% run over on everyone else....not only in Police work but all other segments of society.

I would have to cut some LEO's a little slack in one regard.

So many deptartments pay entry level wages the guys (and gals) they hire probably dont know much but the "job" they have today. Kid's a couple of years out of High School and maybe a 2 year AA program get sponsered into the training ..work the job a few years and thats all they know... they just dont have a rounded life experience yet.
Maybe thats why we have some bad experiences with some...it's the maturity thats lacking on the part of some.

Just my .02

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Post by jkbrea »

Like kimwcook said, it's hard to stand by and not say anything. I too have been a LEO for about 22 years. I have seen some bad cops, but it's been rare. A small handful compared to the large number I have met and worked with. I am NOT making excuses for poor police work but I will say I have never seen an organization that polices itself more or made bigger strides in professionalism. I can go on forever about cops being fired for actions that would barely get a verbal reprimand in another profession. A cop loses his career if caught lying. Can you say that about a lawyer, doctor, judge, priest....
We are held to a high standard, and rightfully so.

I come to this site to escape the stuff on the street and read intelligent comments from men and women with high morals and ethics. I wanted to learn more about leverguns and hunting.
I have also seen comments bordering on racism and hatred for minorities, and others with different views. I know some are meant as humor, but rarely is there an outcry.

People complain that cops are unfriendly. Like kimwcook posted, you know you're a good person when the cops arrive or you're stopped, but we don't. It's called survival. You have to have the same mindset and not get lax because this person"seems" ok. You military guys that have seen combat must know what I'm saying. All it takes is letting your guard down once and you could be dead. A cop comes in contact with dozens of people every day. Lots of bad guys and several good. But even when you meet a good person, it's usually when they are at there worst. You can't be Officer Friendly all the time. No one became a cop to make more friends.

I don't condone the actions of the cop that was ignorant of the law about concealed carry, but fire him? Have you ever seen a penal code and vehicle code. There are literally tens of thousands of laws and you expect him to know all of them. If he acted with criminal intent, then that's different. My God, go to court and watch judges and lawyers try to interpret law, and you expect a cop to know it inside and out. Was he supposed to ignore the guy with a gun in a store? I know I have to carry sometimes but I do it in a way not to attract attention to myself. From what I read, he could have handled it better, but in no way should he have ignored it. The 2 amendment is important to me also, but you have to realize, you are talking about law abiding citizens carrying guns for personal protection, recreation, and hunting. 99.9% of the guns I come in contact with have been used in the commision of a crime. In all my years, I have contacted one person that had a CCW. I am subject to many of the same laws as everyone else when it comes to guns.
I DO enforce the laws on the books and am against many of these proposed laws that politicians come up with for election purposes.

The bottom line is there will always be bad people in all jobs. I can go on about the truck driver that stole my TV and other items when I moved back to the US after serving in the Army, the defense attorney that paid a witness to lie on the stand, the contractor or mechanic that billed for work not done, and on and on. I don't lump them in with all people in their profession.

I absolutely love my job and am proud of what I do. My son followed in my footsteps and I couldn't be more proud.
I like coming to this site to learn but am afraid to be ostracized for being a cop.
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sore shoulder
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Post by sore shoulder »

BlaineG wrote:Frank, you'd go ballistic if someone compared you to one of the few bad eggs in the military....... Do you think you are doing the same thing, Bro?
Lets stick to the program. We are talking about the militarization of police, and the victimization of citizens.

But just to humor you, as a rule, I think overall people who volunteer for military service do so for a much different reason than the new crop of LEO recruits, so your analogy does not hold water Sarge.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
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Marlin336W
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Post by Marlin336W »

If we're going to hold all cops responsible for the actions of those who break the law, then we've got to do the same on all levels of society. Let's hold all doctors responsible for acts of malpractice that are fairly common. Let's hold all gun owners responsible for the deaths of uneducated children. Let's... etc, etc, etc.
Shouldn't this be the way? If break the law then pay the price.I mean, why would you have to depend on a cop to do anything but uphold the law, be knowledgeable of the law, and protect citizens.

I don't think cops should have authority to give breaks to people on personal judgment. If you broke the law, deal with the penalty. This taking the court room to the streets is a bunch of stuff. That is where this has all gone wrong.
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sore shoulder
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Post by sore shoulder »

jkbrea wrote:I don't condone the actions of the cop that was ignorant of the law about concealed carry, but fire him? Have you ever seen a penal code and vehicle code. There are literally tens of thousands of laws and you expect him to know all of them.
Yet we are expected to know them? Do you not see the glaring hypocrisy and double standard as you wrote that? That is about as prime an example of the problem right there.

In his "ignorance" he detained someone. However in his arrogance and downright tyranny he threatened to find something to arrest a law abiding citizen for. He should be in a jail cell. If you can't see that, your part of the problem.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
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Leverdude
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Post by Leverdude »

Leverdude wrote:
Quote:
Never said that. Read again. BUT I don't believe you like being held responsible for the actions of criminal elements,


But, we ARE held liable because of the actions of criminals. Thats the reasons behind gun control & a multitude of other laws & restraints.




My point exactly - and since WE don't like it we should not pay others with the same coin.
That works both ways. Since law enforcement works for me I think the burden of proof lies on them. They dont need to like how I perform but they should surely care how I feel about their actions & methodology.
And that is the point I've been attempting to make in some of my answers above - there should be one set of rules for everyone, no matter if they are police officers or not. We can't just bash cops and not bash everyone else too. I maintain that we've allowed our legislators to help create the current state of affairs. We've got to get serious about bringing change and that's not going to happen by merely bashing cops. At the place where my wife works there's a very common sense rule when it comes to pointing out problems. It's simple. For each problem you go to complain about to management you are to bring two possible solutions to that problem. It cuts down on bashing and opens doors for change.
You say that & I'v heard it before. But LE doesn't want one set of rules for everyone. As I said this phenomenon is a result of abuse by LE & the only way to regain public trust is for the good cops to not permit bad cops to exist. Turns my stomach some of the things our local police union will defend their officers against.

I tell legislators too but the fact is most of the abuses are illegal so legislation dont help. All that can help is for them to police themselves openly & distance themselves from those unfit for their ranks.
Quote:

It becomes that subgroups responsability to police its own ranks & hold its members to a HIGHER standard of behaviour, not to protect & cover it up when one of them, or a bunch of them go astray. The best fraternities dont tolerate unsuitable members & root them out with a vengance. One that desires the respect of the rest of society needs to earn it. Individually I can point to many officers & say they earned my respect. On the whole, as an institution, I think law enforcement in the USA is pretty abusive & lacking substantial liability for its actions.


Fair enough. So, how can we go about shaking up the institution and restoring the respectability it once held?
All we, meaning citizens, can do is not allow it to be swept under the rug. We can call a spade a spade but the healing needs to come from within.
If the feds come into a town & violate someones rights the local cops should arrest them. If theres a speed trap & the chief gets clocked 5 over the limit ticket him. If a guy gets convicted while on the force he's off, regardless of how small an infraction you cant in good faith enforce a law your willing to break.
If these things sound like too much thats too bad. Nobody said the job was easy but if your going to hold peoples lives & freedom in your hands, & as a cop you sure do, then I'm sorry but anything less than perfection is not acceptable. Lives are ruined when cops make mistakes, let alone when they lie or commit crimes.
Quote:

Those are the things that create the us against them attitude. Its not false & its not misplaced, its there because people get treated differently if they wear a badge than if they dont & it'll be there as long as thats how it is.



And that's not going to change as long as our society does not change. Cops don't come from outer space - they come from amongst us. And we, as a people, have created a society in which such attitudes can flourish.

Your right, they come from among us & many enter into it only because of an elitist leaning. However, they shouldn't last long if the majority in the profesion really care about how they are percieved as a group.

All societies have this issue & always will, its not simple to avoid but I think it would go far to see law enforced with equal vigor against fellow officers & elected officials as used against the regular Joe.
Leverdude
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Post by Leverdude »

kimwcook said;
here’s no give so his orbital shatters. I wrote it up in my report and faced a civil service hearing that I was barbecued for close to an hour straight by the civil service commission and the sergeants two attorneys during his termination hearing. He kept his job but the city paid thousands to the younger brother.

Perfect example, why wasn't he arrested? Why did the city pay? Thats indicating the city backed him. He should have gotten fired & tried as a civilian. Who can ever trust this guy to be a good cop after that?
Most proffesions you LOSE your job for less than that but a cop can keep his & get paid legal advice on top of it.

So this guy got to pay a man to break his face, then he got to pay for the guys representation & he got to pay himself for getting his face bashed in & he's still getting to pay the salary of the cop that did it to him.

I'm amazed anyone finds this outcome acceptable.
LeverBob
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Post by LeverBob »

Hmmmmmm? Should I comment on this thread?.........Ah.....NO! Too bad there isn't mention of a levergun....or something like that.

LeverBob
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