Converting FMJ into better defensive rounds...?

[AJMD429]

.
The rounds I think most of us would have FMJ of in significant quantities would be 9mm or maybe 45 ACP or 40 S&W. Now I'd not want to be shot with a BB gun, but a meth-head running at you just might absorb a few 9mm FMJ's and just bleed to death later after stabbing or shooting you. Even in a 45 ACP, I'd prefer not to rely on FMJ.

I've read that if you drill a FMJ to make a 'JHP' that you risk the core blowing through the jacket and consequent gun jamming or worse.

That makes sense, but if one has no other ammo but FMJ for a pistol, any modifications that would be likely to help the round be a better 'stopper' if used for protection purposes...?

I would wonder about 'swaging' a hollow point by dimpling the front, but of course anything that alters the ogive for a semiauto pistol cartridge risks a misfeed. But even that would require pulling the bullets, saving the powder, and re-assembling the round. Clearly not logical if JHP is available for purchase, but in a bad times scenario that might not be the case.

[COSteve]

I don't think just drilling a hole in the nose of a FMJ round will cause it to peal back into petals like a HP round. Likely, all you'd have is a FMJ with a hole in it as the jacket is fairly thick compared to a HP bullet as they are designed to stay in one piece and not expand.

Further, in pistol calibers, I don't have any FMJ rounds except some 45 ACP ball ammo for practice. Most of my ammo that is not HP is either plated soft lead cores or coated lead and both of those mushroom when they meet resistance.

[Grizz]

someone reversed bullets for the effect. I use truncated cone bullets in the 380 because they have the same penetration as 9mm gold dots in fluid. I think a truncated cone produces greater hydraulic shock. but why shoot where it can't incapacitate immediately?
.
there is this> a cnc shot is the only actual fight stopper, right? I tell my wife to shoot in the throat and eyeball. I also tell her to keep the bowie with her when I'm not around. That's a WAY BETTER wound channel...
.
it's a fact that a 380 can break someone's spine. several years ago a demonically operated criminal shot someone thru the breast bone and broke the back bone with a 380. DRT.

[765x53]

Head shots.

[GunnyMack]

One of the famous ivory hunters, Bell maybe , found himself afoot with only his 275 Rigby with soft points. During the night an elephant came to stomp out his fire. Fearing for his life he pulled a bullet with his teeth and turned the bullet backwards seated it as best he could and shot the offending pachedrym in the brain.
Not sure if you can get a 230 FMJ to seat / stay in the case or not... but as you said Doc you would have to dismantle your ammo.
All that being said, Benelli M1 chock full of 4 buck should handle a swarm of meth heads handily!

[Grizz]

Head shots.

I think maybe the reason some hunters don't do that is because they are hunting for antlers. I always preferred the head shot because it works every time, and I can't eat antlers.

[GunnyMack]

Head shots.

I think maybe the reason some hunters don't do that is because they are hunting for antlers. I always preferred the head shot because it works every time, and I can't eat antlers.

Like this?

20190202_173407.jpg

No following blood trails into the deep dark bush either !

[Grizz]

Head shots.

I think maybe the reason some hunters don't do that is because they are hunting for antlers. I always preferred the head shot because it works every time, and I can't eat antlers.

Like this?
20190202_173407.jpg
No following blood trails into the deep dark bush either !

Exactly. DRT before they hit the ground. Good shot.

[Walt]

Another issue with modifying projectiles of any kind; if you do shoot someone and end up in court, any prosecuting attorney will rip you a new one, arguing that you intended to maim the poor, poor miscreant. You're much better off using factory ammo even though that ammo may cause even more hideous wounds than what you had intended.

The bottom line is "It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six". Do what you need to do.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’m not bothered by carrying 230 gr hardball in the.45 ACP and have done so for years.

I prefer a 230 gr Hydrashock but I’m fine with 8 rounds of plain old hardball.

Some fellows who have been in the sandbox say that 9 mm hardball works and there’s a lot of people who have been shot with 9 mm ball ammo.

[Ray]

When the online video sharing sites were relatively new we watched dozens and scores of patrol car dash-cam videos with gun fights during traffic contacts. In one example the hopped perp was scuffling with a much larger smokey and it escalated to a battle over smokey's sidearm. Just like in the movies, the gun went off and as it was out of sight between the two, you could not tell just who was shot. The scuffle continued however until a concerned citizen came to smokey's assistance and the perp was finally subdued with a 230 gr. hydoshok laterally through his abdomen. When the wounded perp lifted his t-shirt the off-side exit showed the vertical ripping that happens when the skin is much stretched before the bullet exits. He stayed on his feet the whole time of the minute or so long video and kept gibbering in disbelief, "you shot me !" The comments to the video gave the impression that he survived. That was a .45 with a heavy for caliber readily expanding bullet at contact range. Could 230 gr. ball done any worse ?

In the violent wider world where gun fights happen more frequently than the worst places here, the combatants use whatever ammo is available and it is usually fmj. The great louis awerbuck said he never knew that he should have been using frangible rounds instead of the 124 gr. ball from his high-power until an armchair commando censured him on the possibility of terminal exit velocity might injure an innocent. He replied that the sheer number of the ak fmj the marxist tribal terrorists were wildly throwing around were much more hazardous than his well aimed shots even if some exited.

[44shooter]

At least 40 cal FMJs tend to be flat points

[Ray]

I quite forgot I had modified some prvi partizan 7.62x39mm subsonic by boring a tiny hole in the nose with a carbide burr. My intent was not to increase terminal performance, their penchant for yawing & tumbling serves there, but to fulfill game laws requirements of the fmj prohibition for deer. I am willing to try them on deer even with their less than .40 s&w paper ballistics. The deer however have not been cooperative enough to stand still and perfectly broadside at 40 paces which is about my self-imposed limit for the romanian draco and the minute of medium pizza box 10 shot dispersion.

[Scott Tschirhart]

No pistol is going to be a death ray, though some are better than others.

There’s no doubt that a good, well designed hollow point that performs when it hits can be more effective. But I don’t know that the difference is as great as we might think, particularly when we are talking about a 9mm or similar cartridge.

I think bigger and heavier bullets do better and a heavy .44 or .45 SWC does a very good job.

But cutting the nose on a FMJ may not result in any significant improvement.

[Grizz]

I quite forgot I had modified some prvi partizan 7.62x39mm subsonic by boring a tiny hole in the nose with a carbide burr. My intent was not to increase terminal performance, their penchant for yawing & tumbling serves there, but to fulfill game laws requirements of the fmj prohibition for deer. I am willing to try them on deer even with their less than .40 s&w paper ballistics. The deer however have not been cooperative enough to stand still and perfectly broadside at 40 paces which is about my self-imposed limit for the romanian draco and the minute of medium pizza box 10 shot dispersion.

I think water is an acceptable substitute, at least for your investigation. And water jugs are famous for holding still.

[JimT]

Before you read this please understand that No One has to agree with me. I am not trying to gain a following or tell people what to use. This is MY opinion and I am simply sharing what I use and why I use it.

"Karamojo" Bell set the standard for dangerous game when he wrote: "A bullet that breaks up is worse than worthless. Penetration is what counts. A bullet that cannot reach the vitals it is aimed at, no matter what the intervening tissue and bone, not only does not kill quickly and reliably but vastly compounds the element of danger to the hunter. A wounded animal is ten times more likely to kill or injure the shooter than an unharmed one. The answer for dangerous game, especially thick-skinned, heavily boned species, is the "solid" bullet precisely placed from a rifle of sufficient caliber to provide the power needed to penetrate, but not so heavy as to be awkward or overpowered."

Bell's idea was to combine the knowledge of anatomy with precise bullet placement, using a "solid" bullet of sufficient power to reach that part of the animal that would bring a quick, decisive death.

Thinking of this while reading some articles on why a person should never use "hardball" ammunition for self-defense, I was struck by the logic of some of the writers in gun magazines. Often their reasoning was like this: "If I was shooting a bear or other dangerous game, yes, I would use hardball. But not for self-defense against a person."

My reaction was "WHAT!?"

I was amazed that their thinking seemed to be that humans are less dangerous than animals. Now I am no expert but for as long as I have walked this planet I have met a whole lot more dangerous humans than I have dangerous animals. Most all of the writers sing the same song. "Use a bullet that will expend it's whole energy in the target and stop in the target." or words to that effect. To me, such talk is ignorant of how and what bullets do. For one thing, bullets don't have "energy" in the literal sense of foot-pounds of energy. The definition of "foot-pounds" is the amount of energy required to lift one pound one foot. Hang a twenty pound log on a rope 4 or 5
feet long. Shoot into it with your 9mm using the 124 gr. FMJ ammo which is rated at 324 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. I don't care how close you get to the muzzle, your shot will not swing the log one foot sideways let alone lift it 2 inches. If your pistol actually produced 324 foot-pounds of energy it would knock that log flying and break your wrist when it went off. Your .44 Magnum won't move the log very far either. Quite frankly, neither will a .300 Winchester Magnum rifle. Bullets don't have that kind of energy.

I sometimes wonder if these "experts" have ever shot anything that was living and breathing at the time.

But what about "over penetration"?

I want more penetration than I need, not less. If I put a hole in something I would rather have a hole going out if possible. Wouldn't that endanger innocent bystanders? Yes. It certainly could. And no one wants to injure or kill innocent people. But rarely does one have the option of choosing when and where to shoot in a self-defense situation. If it is truly a life or death situation requiring the use of deadly force, the blame for innocents being harmed is laid upon the person who committed a crime that resulted in the use of force. (Check your local use of deadly force statutes.)

It should also be mentioned that the majority of shots fired in self-defense .. according to records of Police shootings ... miss their intended target entirely. To me a missed shot is pretty deadly. I mean, if it will stop in the body of a bad guy, but the bad guy is missed, it will easily stop in the body of an innocent. As far as I am concerned, the over-pentration argument is just writers hype. They have to sell articles.

I want a load that will penetrate to the vitals no matter the angle that I am shooting, or how large the intended target is, or what the target may be clothed with. Some of those fancy hollowpoints may not even reach the body if it is winter and the person is dressed for very cold weather and weighs in excess of 300 pounds. While that bullet may penetrate 12 inches of jello and then stop, shooting a large fat bad guy dressed for 10 below zero just might not do anything but pee him off.

The wife of a friend of mine accidentally hit a bear with her car. The bear was severely wounded and her husband shot it with his .45ACP loaded with JHP's. He put 3 or 4 rounds into the bear with no results. He had some FMJ's and when he hit the bear with those there was a definite reaction. About that time a Highway Patrolman showed up and finished the bear with his AR. Autopsy revealed none of the JHP's made it all the way through the hair and fat. The solids did. On a 180 pound bear. The husband no longer carries JHP's in his .45.

The other side of the problem is this: often hollowpoint bullets fired through clothing tend to "plug" the hollow point and the bullet acts
just like a solid hardball. There is a lot of empirical evidence to verify this. The down-side is if the bullet is light weight for the caliber, it will not penetrate like a standard weight bullet will. That is what happened on the bear.

My last reason for carrying hardball is hardball does not give feeding problems that some large-cavity hollowpoint bullets can. The gun just runs better with hardball. I prefer reliability over problems getting some fancy bullet to feed properly. I want that firearm to operate properly and reliably first and foremost. So no thanks. I will use my old hardball .45 ACP thank you. The whole reason it was designed was to stop large agressive attackers and it will still do that IF the shooter does his or her part.

And THAT is the key to everything. Precise placement of the shot. Something that is pretty near impossible to do when your life is on the line. But it was something hunters of dangerous game (and those who hunted dangerous men) learned. It is something that those of us who carry need to learn.

[GunnyMack]

All valid points Jim and my 'Duh' alarm just went off as I didn't think about what you have just written- I'm of the same school of thought.
I knew a guy that worked as a special deputy from Clovis NM, he would alternate FMJ/ Black Talon/ FMJ/ BT until the mags were full- claimed it was the best of both worlds. That's an easy option for all.

[jkbrea]

For on-duty, I had to carry .45 ACP with Speer Hold Dots...but, I always carried an extra mag with hardball ammo in case I needed the penetration.

[AJMD429]

Before you read this please understand that No One has to agree with me. I am not trying to gain a following or tell people what to use. This is MY opinion and I am simply sharing what I use and why I use it.

"Karamojo" Bell set the standard for dangerous game when he wrote: "A bullet that breaks up is worse than worthless. Penetration is what counts. A bullet that cannot reach the vitals it is aimed at, no matter what the intervening tissue and bone, not only does not kill quickly and reliably but vastly compounds the element of danger to the hunter. A wounded animal is ten times more likely to kill or injure the shooter than an unharmed one. The answer for dangerous game, especially thick-skinned, heavily boned species, is the "solid" bullet precisely placed from a rifle of sufficient caliber to provide the power needed to penetrate, but not so heavy as to be awkward or overpowered."

Bell's idea was to combine the knowledge of anatomy with precise bullet placement, using a "solid" bullet of sufficient power to reach that part of the animal that would bring a quick, decisive death.

Thinking of this while reading some articles on why a person should never use "hardball" ammunition for self-defense, I was struck by the logic of some of the writers in gun magazines. Often their reasoning was like this: "If I was shooting a bear or other dangerous game, yes, I would use hardball. But not for self-defense against a person."

My reaction was "WHAT!?"

I was amazed that their thinking seemed to be that humans are less dangerous than animals. Now I am no expert but for as long as I have walked this planet I have met a whole lot more dangerous humans than I have dangerous animals. Most all of the writers sing the same song. "Use a bullet that will expend it's whole energy in the target and stop in the target." or words to that effect. To me, such talk is ignorant of how and what bullets do. For one thing, bullets don't have "energy" in the literal sense of foot-pounds of energy. The definition of "foot-pounds" is the amount of energy required to lift one pound one foot. Hang a twenty pound log on a rope 4 or 5
feet long. Shoot into it with your 9mm using the 124 gr. FMJ ammo which is rated at 324 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. I don't care how close you get to the muzzle, your shot will not swing the log one foot sideways let alone lift it 2 inches. If your pistol actually produced 324 foot-pounds of energy it would knock that log flying and break your wrist when it went off. Your .44 Magnum won't move the log very far either. Quite frankly, neither will a .300 Winchester Magnum rifle. Bullets don't have that kind of energy.

I sometimes wonder if these "experts" have ever shot anything that was living and breathing at the time.

But what about "over penetration"?

I want more penetration than I need, not less. If I put a hole in something I would rather have a hole going out if possible. Wouldn't that endanger innocent bystanders? Yes. It certainly could. And no one wants to injure or kill innocent people. But rarely does one have the option of choosing when and where to shoot in a self-defense situation. If it is truly a life or death situation requiring the use of deadly force, the blame for innocents being harmed is laid upon the person who committed a crime that resulted in the use of force. (Check your local use of deadly force statutes.)

It should also be mentioned that the majority of shots fired in self-defense .. according to records of Police shootings ... miss their intended target entirely. To me a missed shot is pretty deadly. I mean, if it will stop in the body of a bad guy, but the bad guy is missed, it will easily stop in the body of an innocent. As far as I am concerned, the over-pentration argument is just writers hype. They have to sell articles.

I want a load that will penetrate to the vitals no matter the angle that I am shooting, or how large the intended target is, or what the target may be clothed with. Some of those fancy hollowpoints may not even reach the body if it is winter and the person is dressed for very cold weather and weighs in excess of 300 pounds. While that bullet may penetrate 12 inches of jello and then stop, shooting a large fat bad guy dressed for 10 below zero just might not do anything but pee him off.

The wife of a friend of mine accidentally hit a bear with her car. The bear was severely wounded and her husband shot it with his .45ACP loaded with JHP's. He put 3 or 4 rounds into the bear with no results. He had some FMJ's and when he hit the bear with those there was a definite reaction. About that time a Highway Patrolman showed up and finished the bear with his AR. Autopsy revealed none of the JHP's made it all the way through the hair and fat. The solids did. On a 180 pound bear. The husband no longer carries JHP's in his .45.

The other side of the problem is this: often hollowpoint bullets fired through clothing tend to "plug" the hollow point and the bullet acts
just like a solid hardball. There is a lot of empirical evidence to verify this. The down-side is if the bullet is light weight for the caliber, it will not penetrate like a standard weight bullet will. That is what happened on the bear.

My last reason for carrying hardball is hardball does not give feeding problems that some large-cavity hollowpoint bullets can. The gun just runs better with hardball. I prefer reliability over problems getting some fancy bullet to feed properly. I want that firearm to operate properly and reliably first and foremost. So no thanks. I will use my old hardball .45 ACP thank you. The whole reason it was designed was to stop large agressive attackers and it will still do that IF the shooter does his or her part.

And THAT is the key to everything. Precise placement of the shot. Something that is pretty near impossible to do when your life is on the line. But it was something hunters of dangerous game (and those who hunted dangerous men) learned. It is something that those of us who carry need to learn.

I just had to 'quote' that rather than just 'reply', because it makes so much SENSE...!

It boils back down to 'shot placement' doesn't it, really...

1. shot placement
2. penetration
3. meplat

Really, 'energy' just facilitates penetration, give proper bullet construction, and 'velocity' helps placement, by flattening trajectory, so range estimation isn't as critical. And the bigger the impact area and hole, the better.

It just seems like so many people get hit in a thigh or arm or even gut, with 9mm FMJ, and go on to fight awhile. But the problem is that they were hit in the arm or leg or gut instead of the central nervous system, or at least thorax. The typical 9mm gun gives you more chances to do that than the typical 45ACP, although I really DO like my ParaOrdnance 14-round 911.

But yeah, I just don't see me 'modifying' a bunch of FMJ for the likely insignificant changes it might make in flesh tearing with a bad hit, but potentially more significant reduction in reliable feeding and function. Perhaps with a gun that feeds properly, one might want to load the top round a JHP in case the first shot is so rapid it is way off, but have FMJ in after that.

Or carry a 12 gauge with #4 buck shot first and a slug second. Like those SxS 12 gauge 'pistols' they sell...

[JimT]

Or load a nice flat nose hardcast up first just in case you have to shoot through a car door or something really large.

11.JPG

[Scott Tschirhart]

Precise placement of the shot. Something that is pretty near impossible to do when your life is on the line. But it was something hunters of dangerous game (and those who hunted dangerous men) learned. It is something that those of us who carry need to learn.

Some of the deadliest men I have known were not particularly good shots if you put them up against a bullseye shooter (though some were). But they had the ability to control their emotions and to take the necessary actions instantly. This can be taught.

One of the reasons Col. Cooper gave the lecture on combat mindset is that most of us are uncomfortable and unaccustomed to thinking about killing each other and grabbing that gear is not easy for most civilized men and women.

[JimT]

Some of the deadliest men I have known were not particularly good shots if you put them up against a bullseye shooter (though some were). But they had the ability to control their emotions and to take the necessary actions instantly. This can be taught.

One of the reasons Col. Cooper gave the lecture on combat mindset is that most of us are uncomfortable and unaccustomed to thinking about killing each other and grabbing that gear is not easy for most civilized men and women.

True. I have spent time with men who had lived through that. Several of them in more than 5 deadly encounters during their time. I remember one man who told me, "I am not a great shot, but those fights took place in hotel rooms and small places at around 15 feet and at that distance I can put a bullet right where I need to."

[Keith D]

I would say that penetration is very important. I know a man that is still walking around after being shot twice in the face and once in the neck. Happened to him years ago. The only thing that saved him was the cartridge used... .32 acp.

[JimT]

I would say that penetration is very important. I know a man that is still walking around after being shot twice in the face and once in the neck. Happened to him years ago. The only thing that saved him was the cartridge used... .32 acp.

"... in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect."
-copied from "Handgun Wounding Factors: An Effectiveness Guide for Law Enforcement" by Sam Jacobs

[GunnyMack]

I knew a man, he was darn near a brick outhouse when I first met him, that was years AFTER his ex wife shot him point blank in the chest with a 44 mag and 180gr hollow point. The only lasting effect he had was a trachea tube from the er docs rushing to stabilize him.
He told me the bullet was a perfect mushroom and stopped a few mm from severing his aorta. His doc told him if it was any other human they never would have lived long enough for the ambulance to get there.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Imagine getting shot in the chest with a .44 mag. That hurts to even hear about it!

But this illustrates the point. Any heavier bullet would likely have punched his ticket.

[Sixgun]

It’s all marketing……catchy names like “personal defense”…..and “for inner city use”.

Years ago someone came out with a hollow point round for the 25 a.c.p…..the gun shop owner showed them to me and I couldn’t stop laughing.

Head shots on animals should only be taken if you know EXACTLY where the bullet is going to land or there will be animals running around with their jaws blown off….

As Jim Taylor says, “no one really wants to be shot, even with a .22”. The mental trauma that comes with being shot must be terrible for most people, allowing a quick follow up for the shooter.

I never could understand the need for any fancy bullets in the 45 acp….tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers and Nazi’s will attest to that. The 9mm must be an exception as why would most police departments and Federal entities make the change after extensive testing.

Now would be an excellent time to test the difference……line up a few dozen Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists and shoot em in the upper torso and ask the survivors how they feel. The shooters could start will sling shots and BB guns and work their way up to anti aircraft guns.

It’s all about mass. Elmer Keith knew this a hundred years ago.

[JimT]

I remember some .25 ACP "hollowpoints" that had a BB in the nose so they would feed. I pulled the BB out and shot some against concrete blocks. They did not expand even then. Though why you would want one to expand is beyond me. The .25 auto was fun to mess with. If you had to carry one, it was better than being armed only with harsh words.

[piller]

Expecting a 1 shot stop is probably a good way to get killed.

[Sarge]

I concur with Jim and Scott.

[Grizz]

Screenshot 2023-10-19 201415 head-shots.png

Hey Six, have you done this? I heard this a lot in Alaska, but I never saw that, my kids never saw that, my hunting friends never saw that, and I wonder where it comes from. It's our preferred shot cause we don't like crashing into brown bears while looking for bloody bear bait.

Here's a look at typical deer country where we hunted >
.

Screenshot 2023-10-19 195217 Greentop Harbor.png

[Scott Tschirhart]

Expecting a 1 shot stop is probably a good way to get killed.

Especially with a pistol. Not so much with a 12 gauge.

[GunnyMack]

Expecting a 1 shot stop is probably a good way to get killed.

Especially with a pistol. Not so much with a 12 gauge.

Yup, your sidearm is for when your fouling peice runs dry!

[765x53]

Shot placement!
".....We've seen the red coat Briton bleed
the red skin Indian too
we never thought to draw a bead on Yankee Doodle Do
but, if doodle must be medaling, there's only this to do
select the black spot in his eye and let the day-light through .....

[Grizz]

.
The rounds I think most of us would have FMJ of in significant quantities would be 9mm or maybe 45 ACP or 40 S&W. Now I'd not want to be shot with a BB gun, but a meth-head running at you just might absorb a few 9mm FMJ's and just bleed to death later after stabbing or shooting you. Even in a 45 ACP, I'd prefer not to rely on FMJ.

Been reading a lot of comparison articles since this was posted and came across this statement:
.

Screenshot 2023-10-25 101612 45acp penetration fact.png

.
after all, this is what JB was tasked to produce . . . something to think about . . .
.
but you point out the fallacy of shooting at "center mass" when a bullet into the throat area from almost any angle is a kill. I'll try to member this if ever I am being charged by a meth-head . . . [or a democrat] †

[GunnyMack]

Shot placement!
".....We've seen the red coat Briton bleed
the red skin Indian too
we never thought to draw a bead on Yankee Doodle Do
but, if doodle must be medaling, there's only this to do
select the black spot in his eye and let the day-light through .....

This should be on a greeting card

[1894cfan]

Sounds like a good idea. I've pulled 30 carbine FMJ bullets out of factory ammo and replaced with Speer 110HP bullets, you know, the swaged ones that they've made for decades. Lately the FMJs that I've pulled out of the 30 carbine ammo I've started loading in 300BLK brass, basically making the 300BLK into a 30 carbine +P+ round.

[stretch]

Interesting discussion.

I sometimes load magazines with a variety of projectiles.
It's a great way to test a new pistol and/or new mags. If the
weapons system will work with all of those different loads
in one magazine, one can consider it reliable!

I've shot a lot of red squirrels up here in Maine with a 22 air rifle.
RWS make a hollow point pellet, which expands impressively - 1.5x to
2x the original diameter. They don't exit the squirrel.

I get the best results with heavy-for-caliber pointed pellets like Cro-Magnums, though.
One gets both entry and exit wounds, and the squirrels definitely die faster.

For social work, maybe a 10mm HP is optimal - plenty of power for penetration,
a decent-sized entry wound, and one helluvan exit wound - the 10mm has enough
power to push the HP right through. YMMV.

And as others have said, ya gotta hit yer target in order to do any useful work with
a bullet; whether you're shooting for your dinner, your life, or a good score.
-Stretch

[kaschi]

Not sure if anyone one mentioned the following point in this thread because I didn't read each post but.......anyone who alters a bullet and uses it for self defense is doing nothing more than asking to have his @$$ handed to him in a court case when he's convicted. Period.