Examination of ammo performance in pistol caliber carbines

[wm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxcFK3rcqU8

Interesting …… but I'm on the fence about pistol caliber carbines in 9mm. IMO 357 mag and 44 mag seem to make good use of the extra barrel length while the 9mm not so much.

Wm

[AJMD429]

Thanks for posting that link. I agree about 9mm, although one time when I had some 'fun money' to spend I almost ordered a Contender Rifle barrel in 9mm just to fiddle with, but thought the better of it....why not get the same in 357 Max, and shoot heavy-for-caliber bullets by taking advantage of bigger powder capacity, just staying slightly subsonic....?

Sadly, 'fun money' became 'fix the washing machine' money, so I did neither...

I do really like 32-20 Win, 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, and 454 Casull leverguns though....

When it comes to 9mm, I think the main niche for me would be as an ammunition-compatible (and perhaps magazine-compatible) companion gun for a CCW semiauto. It would be something one could keep in the vehicle and have a 'long-gun' that would be easier to hit with at longer ranges than most of us can accurately shoot with a handgun, just due to the longer sight radius (or optics), and the extra stability of putting it to the shoulder. I guess then the 'big question' would be if your particular circumstance would favor having a handgun and carbine in 9mm and compatible magazines with maybe 1,000 rounds in them or handy, versus the same handgun paired with a clearly more accurate, more lethal, and more powerful rifle in 5.56, 30-30, 44 Mag, 308, or whatever, with much fewer rounds carried due to the extra bulk and weight. I suppose a 20 mile get-back-home walk through a big city might have me leaning towards the former 'pair' and the same scenario in a rural area I'd probably settle for less rounds and more distance/power ability, though that might be silly.

Most likely any 'pair' I get will be for defending against pop-cans and paper targets, or maybe the occasional feral dog, so it probably won't matter what I choose.

[Jay Bird]

Without reading the link it comes down to common sense...the 9 mm just does not have the case capacity to utilize slower burning powders that give higher velocities in longer barrels like the other cartridges mentioned. I've done somewhat (for me) extensive testing using 9mm semi auto handguns and a few Uzi 16" carbines and did not reach appreciable velocity increases.

That's OK though, a carbine is easier to hit with and as Jim T says, "I'd be running from a .22 if someone is shooting it at me." ---6

[wm]

I actually have taken the 'get home' scenario somewhat seriously …… at least by comparison to many of the other prepper scenarios.

My jaunt home is likely to be 25 miles from work, possibly middle of the night, through Michigan's occasional inclement weather, through most upscale neighborhoods. Hardly a walk through the valley of death but still the potential for trouble can't be dismissed.

S&W model 10 38 spl and pump action Mossberg 12 gauge. It ain't sexy, it might not even be considered optimal by some, but I believe its more then adequate.

I like the ruggedness of the shotgun …… and the fact that it is both intimidating and at the same time non tactical (with the possible prejudice that might come with that from LEOs in a emergency).

Wm

[piller]

I have a .40 Glock pistol and Kel Tec Sub 2K that share magazines. Nice get home in the absolute worst case scenario. Bottlet water, peanuts, and life savers mints also go in the student type backpack. I am diabetic, so I carry protein and sugars in an easily counted form. I take my insulin to work in a small cooler, and I always have extra syringes and alcohol wipes. I also keep a good pair of walking shoes in the trunk. It is not likely that I will ever need my get home bag, but it is there just in case the manure impacts on the wind producing machine.

[crs]

WM said " IMO 357 mag and 44 mag seem to make good use of the extra barrel length while the 9mm not so much."

I agree. For a while, I had carbines in .357 and .44 mag and decided the .357 was best for me an sold the .44.


PS, I skipped the video because I was loading and shooting my Winnie 1892 and S&W M19 before the narrator was born.

[piller]

Does a 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 magnum revolver with a pistol scope split the difference between a pistol and a carbine?

[AJMD429]

Does a 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 magnum revolver with a pistol scope split the difference between a pistol and a carbine?

I think it does ballistically, but the real advantage of the 'carbine' is the ability to have better long-range sights (either optics or a longer-sight-radius iron sight set), and a steadier aim with the ability to put it to your shoulder. Otherwise my 'get home package' would just be an extra one of my CCW pistols and thirty or so loaded magazines (then I could shoot with one in each hand like the guys in the movies... )

[Bronco]

I have a Ruger RH with a 71/2" barrel and a Marlin with a 24" barrel! A 300 gr cast gets about 300 fps more out of the Marlin when stuffed with 2400.

[Grizz]

Does a 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 magnum revolver with a pistol scope split the difference between a pistol and a carbine?

A 10" superblackhawk 44 mag definately splits the difference if you're comparing the same ammo. I made a lot of meat with mine with custom ammo that would not stabilize in the carbine. But the carbine with whitebox 240s was plenty good at making meat on its own.

I have the sub2000 in 9mm. I think that most pistol ammo in 9mm is optimized for pistols and doesn't gain much in the carbine. what the carbine does have is 20 round mags, and a quadruple tap might be nearly as effective as a .357, I don't know. Heh.

I got the keltec to be my car gun, but I can't carry it loaded where I live so I switched to a 556 AR15 pistol, which I can carry loaded, and which IS NOT AN ASSAULT WEAPON. Lots going for it

[piller]

One of the better parts about living in Texas is that the laws here are mostly gun friendly. If traveling more than 2 counties away from home, you can keep a loaded firearm in the vehicle even without a License To Carry. With your LTC there are few restrictions. Your employee can say no firearms on company property, certain parts of the Post Office are No Carry zones. No carrying at a school unless you are a Teacher or Administrator with Board permission. No carry in a bar. No carry at athletic events.

The parking lot is public property unless it requires a special pass to enter.

[HawkCreek]

I think auto-pistol caliber carbines are pretty niche. For the police officer they sorta make sense but more often than not an AR carbine would do the same job better other than ammo and mag comparability with their sidearm. Some civilian use has been stated above but for me there isnt usually enough benefit in power to justify the increased weight and size. My truck guns are all pretty standardized somewhere between a .30-30 Trapper, a .308 carbine and a .30-06 SRC.

[mikld]

When I bought my 45 ACP HP carbine I wasn't looking for a 100+ yard hunting rifle. I wanted a fun gun that I could "hunker down" with, either get me to a safe place or keep the some safe. I have 2, "Just in Case" cartridges, neither long range, high velocity hunting, style guns; 9mm and 45 ACP. I have three guns in each caliber and I keep about 800-1,000 rounds of ammo loaded up, easy to grab, "just in case". My 45 ACP load is a 230 FMJ over a classic load of Bullseye. This load feeds, fires, ejects cleanly, and is fairly accurate in all three guns (on my first time out with the HP, I was getting consistent 2-2 1/2" groups at 30 yards and kept all shots on a paper plate at 50-60 yards (my old body can't shoot as well as it used to).

To me complaining, "discussing" how a pistol caliber carbine falls short is like complaining that your turkey baloney doesn't taste like old fashioned multi-meat baloney. It is what it is...

[piller]

I am wider than a paper plate. NO, I don't want to get hit by a .451 inch 230 grain FMJ that started out somewhere around 900 fps 50 yards ago.

For get home stuff, I do not need the range of a .30-06 or a .308 because I am mostly in the city. A carbine in .40 cal or even the sort of new High Point in 10 mm would probably be more than enough. A .45 ACP carbine would probably be enough. I like the folding capability of my KelTec. The .40 cal does benefit a little from the increased barrel length, but it does not have the case capacity to reap the benefits that a .357 Magnum would. If KelTec could figure out a way to make a delayed blowback in the Sub2K it might make that new 350 Legend a potential for them. I still like the ability to use the same ammunition and magazine that my Sub2K and Glock 22 share, so I might not change the carbine unless my work location changes.

[hfcable]

Does a 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 magnum revolver with a pistol scope split the difference between a pistol and a carbine?

I think it does ballistically, but the real advantage of the 'carbine' is the ability to have better long-range sights (either optics or a longer-sight-radius iron sight set), and a steadier aim with the ability to put it to your shoulder. Otherwise my 'get home package' would just be an extra one of my CCW pistols and thirty or so loaded magazines (then I could shoot with one in each hand like the guys in the movies... )

and be sure to hold at least one of those pistols sideways !!

[Griff]

Golly Sixgun... you're making regret buying that Sharps... I thought that since it was perfect for the buffalo hunters, it'd be a good bad times gun...

[Ray]

Look for Dean Grennell articles in the old handloader digest annuals.....

He tested loads in the 9mm and .45 marlin camp carbines and had to use unsanctioned loads of 2400 and accurate #9 to make any gains in the carbine length barrels.....In one instance, there was a case separation with a section that had to removed from the chamber.....

As odd as those powder choices sound, all of the manuals of the day had Win. 630 load data for self-loading pistol cartridges.....630 is darn close to 2400 in speed.....