Win vs. Browning Miroku 1886

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:12 am

I know I am stirring the pot but here I go. There has been many a post about the differences in the two rifles and which is better. I just got back from the NRA convention where I had a long conversation with the Browning and Win reps. I talked with the head of the Browning and Win museums, a Miroku factory rep. and various other top company officials. I was told that unequivocally they are exactly the same. They have the same specs the same quality control everything is the same. I asked them why then on the open market and resale market the Brownings bring more money generally. They just grinned and said they didnâ€™t know.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:32 am

The Miroku/Brownings are a tad more desireable to some because they lack the lawyer-up safeties the Miroku/Winchester's do, and there were more variations made by Miroku for Browning, than as "Winchesters".

Besides, the Browning High Grades also had killer wood & a very fine metal polish/blue.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:36 am

I corrected the spelling of Miroku.

I have to go with Pete on that. I wouldn't buy a "lawyered up" Winchester but only because of the rebounding hammer and tang safety. Yeah, yeah, I know, "it is a done deal" and "it is handy for unloading" and "it really doesn't affect anything if you just ignore the safety". Right. Not for me. Will I consider paying extra for that? Guess I have, I have two of the Browning/Miroku guns and none of the Winchesters.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:02 am

The thing I dislike about my Win 1894 Compact Ranger is the lower tang assembly, or lack of it.

I wonder about the 1886, did they short-cut the parts count on that one too? Dastook says they're the same, so I'd guess not. Kinda don't like having a gun held together, or apart, by the butt stock.

About the Win 1886 function, I fired Blaine's and it's a remarkably sweet gun. Balance is perfect and the recoil drives straight back. And we were hitting everything we could see out to 140 some yards. Certainly didn't notice any problems because of the rebounding hammer or safety. It was so much fun to shoot we quickly forgot those things. And the trigger pull didn't require a tractor to assist the release.

So I'd say if someone has a deep desire for an 1886, and the Winc is available, get it and add the Browning when you can. The Winnie is too good of a gun, in spite of the junk we hate to see on it, to forgo the pleasure of shooting it.

Hopefully I haven't offended anyone personally with this post, it was certainly not my intent, but sometimes I just manage to PO folks without really trying.....

Grizz

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:26 am

[sometimes I just manage to PO folks without really trying..... ]

PSHAW ! It kaint be counted, as a "good day", 'lessen ya do !

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:28 am

...and if you get real eat up about the tang safety and rebounding hammer, get rid of them. It isn't rocket science and you still have a Winchester.

Of the two, I've seen zero difference in fit and finish. They are both outstanding. Its a shame they don't carry the "Made in America". But that too can be fixed.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:59 am

Of course the real question should be - why? Why did they feel the need to make a Browning to begin with?

It would have been nice to just have a Winchester without the tang safety and rebounder.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:09 am

El Mac wrote:Of course the real question should be - why? Why did they feel the need to make a Browning to begin with?

It would have been nice to just have a Winchester without the tang safety and rebounder.

I think that at that time, Browning and Winchester were not of the same company as they are now. So Browning seeing the demand reproduced the Browning designs as Brownings. Later, when Winchester (the name) was brought into the "fold", the guns were produced as Winchesters albeit with the later, by that time, required lawyered up changes. Winchester probably felt that they couldn't not have the additional changes since they'd already changed up the 94.

Naphtali · Post by **Naphtali** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:16 am

What are production numbers of each? I believe there has been but a single run of Browning while USRA has been run several time. It may still be in the production que for the reconstituted Winchester brand.

While the safety mechanism affects price significantly, scarcity also does so.
***
Parenthetically, does any gunsmith -- or has any USRA M1886 owner -- removed the tang safety then filled its slot with color-compatible material? My quick-and-dirty instinct thinks of removing safety button, filling the slot with black epoxy or dissolved LexanÂ®, then applying Butcher's Wax to render surface appearance similar. . . . Please don't hurt me.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:35 am

The Browning 86 was made the way they were designed. I learned a lesson when I bought my 94 angle-rebounder

. never again..... the good news for Me is that because of it I found this site seven years ago.
The Winchester 45-70 extra lite would be My top choice for a big bore lever. but not with the rebounding hammer. I have read many posts of them haveing lite primer strikes. Jim.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:38 am

I own multiple copies of both and there are no discernable differences between the Browning and Winchester Miroku made model 1886s other than the aforementioned safety devices. The parts readily interchange, excepting the trigger springs, and the tang safety and rebounding hammer can be eliminated by using Browning parts.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:13 pm

[I have read many posts of them haveing lite primer strikes. Jim.]

The ones that give light strikes (my two did not) are easily remedied.

Here's the tutorial, from our home page:

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/jimstags/win1892/index.htm

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:22 pm

Quite frankly the Winchester tang safety guns don't work!

I have documented several of these rifles as having problems firing factory ammo. They have inconsistant ignition and therefore suffer with poor accuracy. The last one I worked on I replaced the Winchester parts with Browning and welded up the tang asfety hole. Before conversion the rifle missed fire about once out of ever 8 roounds of factory ammo and groups were strung over 6" at 100 yards. After conversion the rifle grouped nice round 2 1/2" groups at the same range and no misfires.

Who wants a rifle just to hang on the wall? Well here you go buy the tang safety Winchesters.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:14 pm

KCSO wrote:Quite frankly the Winchester tang safety guns don't work!

I have documented several of these rifles as having problems firing factory ammo. They have inconsistant ignition and therefore suffer with poor accuracy. The last one I worked on I replaced the Winchester parts with Browning and welded up the tang asfety hole. Before conversion the rifle missed fire about once out of ever 8 roounds of factory ammo and groups were strung over 6" at 100 yards. After conversion the rifle grouped nice round 2 1/2" groups at the same range and no misfires.

Who wants a rifle just to hang on the wall? Well here you go buy the tang safety Winchesters.

Agreed, plus if they were the same guns any given part from one would replace any given part in the other. Aint gonna happen.

The Browning and Win reps are salesmen, not gun wrenches.

One of the reasons the 86 is such a popular gun is because it was a robust design with minimal tiny, fragile parts. Because they don't have these delicate parts they have stood the test of time. The Browning 86 follows this tradition in stronger modern steel. So there's the problem with the new Win/Miroku guns. Those add-on parts donâ€™t work as consistent as the original and they wonâ€™t hold up for the long haul.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:29 pm

Much ado about nothing, IMHO!

Both are wonderful rifles, and other than the rebounding hammer and tang safety, they are the same. Absolutely NO difference in quality.

I have examples of both in the 1886 and the 1895. One thing I will have to say is that the fit and finish on my New Winchester 1895 SRC is far better than the Browning 1895 rifle.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 pm

Out of 50 rounds I've had 4 "light strikes" from my Davidson Win.

I'm getting the guts replaced in July.

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:12 pm

Out of 9 Winchester 1886's I've had in the shop 6 needed work to fire a full 50 rounds of factory ammo. That just ain't right. I won't order one for anybody without telling them they will likely need work on the gun and for $1500?

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:52 pm

Hobie wrote:I corrected the spelling of Miroku.

I have to go with Pete on that. I wouldn't buy a "lawyered up" Winchester but only because of the rebounding hammer and tang safety. Yeah, yeah, I know, "it is a done deal" and "it is handy for unloading" and "it really doesn't affect anything if you just ignore the safety". Right. Not for me. Will I consider paying extra for that? Guess I have, I have two of the Browning/Miroku guns and none of the Winchesters.

How does Browning get by the lawyers to not have the rebound hammer and tang safety? Have they even made a run of Brownings over say, the last ten years and the new ones they run will have them?

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:30 pm

Good evening,

Browning didn't "get by the lawyers" the idea that these additional safeties were required wasn't set in stone when they produced the guns.

They made no more after the lots produced. When FN bought the rights to the Winchester name (they already owned Browning) they decided to do limited runs of WINCHESTERS with the tooling they owned at Miroku. However, the lawyers then pointed out that Winchester was already committed to, had admitted fault by, installing additional safeties on the M94s. For liability reasons they couldn't go back, so the Winchester division added the safeties (which by this time were the tang safeties) to the substantially similar M1886 and M92 guns. Winchester has yet to make a M71 again.

If it is a 1886 or 92 or 71 or 1895 and has Browning on the box/gun it has no extra safeties. If it is NIB, i.e. made after 1994 (IIRC), and a Winchester it will have them.

marlin shooter · Post by **marlin shooter** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:32 pm

I have a Browning 1895 30-06 that shoot's great and cycles everything fine. I have a Browning 1886 SRC that shoot's fine and cycle's fine (stock sight's atrocious) and I have a Winchester (miroku) .44 Mag that work's great! I have shot cast and jacketed ammo with great accuracy. No misfire's. Fit and finish is beautiful, Barrel like a mirror. However if I read up on the forum's about it I will find it misfire's, ain't like the origional's and not really a worthy gun. I have not seen this with my particular rifle. Granted I do not do cowboy action shoot's. I wish the rifle didn't have the rebounding hammer or the tang safety but it does and I have chose to live with it.
Karl

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Wed May 21, 2008 6:06 pm

ok, I bought one of the deluxe 1886 takedowns and 3 of the repro 1895's -- 2 in 30-06 and a 30-40 krag. The only one I have fired is the 100th anniversary 30-06 carbine. I have put about 200 rounds through it with no problems so far. I would very much like to have them 'retro-fitted' to original form. But, I am not as skilled as others and the gunsmiths I have talked to do not want the liability to do the retro-fit. If there is someone that does the retrofits, i would love to know.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:16 pm

I have the Winchester 1886 take-down and have ~450 rounds through it with no problems at all. I read about how to convert the rebounding hammer and may do so someday (if I stumble onto the spare parts to do the job). I just don't want to make any permanent changes that could affect the value of the rifle. Maybe I got lucky - but the trigger on my Miroku isn't what I'd call bad..

1886 · Post by **1886** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:46 pm

I do not think there is any difference in finish or attention to detail between the two but I am dumping my Win. 86s and 95s because I can not live with the tang safety or the rebounding hammer. I have been fortunate to find two B 86s lately. Regards. 1886.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:56 pm

I have also owned and shot several of the lawyered up Winchesters and the Brownings. The Brownings have slicker actions, and so far total reliability. The Winchesters gave me problems, with misfires, and one rifle was bad to jam on occasion. The winchesters are now gone, and the Brownings will always be with me, until I don't need them anymore, or heaven forbid something else happens, which results in their loss.

I do still have one model 94 angle eject, which has had the cross bolt safety replaced, due to the fine help of another on this board, and this gun still works fine, but the Miroku Winchesters are gone.

I think the Brownings are definately better, but we can't all have the Brownings, because I doubt if they're enough to go around, so many will have to make the Winchesters work for them and to those people, I bid good luck, you will probably need it.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:26 am

It's really pretty simple. The more parts you have the more chances for parts failure. KISS

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:41 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:It's really pretty simple. The more parts you have the more chances for parts failure. KISS

+1! AMEN

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:25 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:It's really pretty simple. The more parts you have the more chances for parts failure. KISS

Thats why I was saying, delawyer it. Make 'em the way God intended. Then you have yourself a nice rifle.

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Thu May 22, 2008 6:30 pm

Maybe I just imagine this, but I think I recall that at the time of the 1886 Browning introduction in 1986, ( I got one), it commemerated 100 years since the time that Winchester offered the first 1886's in the year 1886. I think I recall that Browning was prohibited by legal agreements with Winchester from 1886 that they could not produce that 1886 rifle for 100 years. Browning did not own Winchester in 1986, so they made the guns in honor of John Browning to some great extent, he designed the thing originally, as I believe I remember reading in Guns and Ammo at that time. But my memory could be fooling me too, I just know I love my 1886 octagon standard grade, and my SRC as well. Later when they produced the model 71's, I managed to acquire all 4 versions, won't ever sell them either---no rebounding parts, no safeties.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:37 pm

The differences matter if you think they do and don't if you think they don't.