Oooops! I mis-identified my bullet alloy...

[earlmck]

A friend gave me a small bucket (about 30 pounds worth) of broken up type metal that this kid just "assumed" was linotype. Yeah, it looked just like some of the lino that I have acquired over the past many years of scrounging bullet metal.

I made up a large bunch of .22 cal bullets and some .25's. Didn't notice a thing wrong until I discovered that my old 22 hornet which is a fair tack-driver with cast bullets didn't like the new batch of bullets -- like 3 to 4 inch groups! I have never had the old babe shoot a bullet that poorly.

Then (finally) I got around to examining my fine bullets. Instead of the 55 grains that my .22 bullet is supposed to weigh when cast of linotype, the bullet weighs just over 50 grains. So I stumbled around with the relative densities of tin, antimony, and lead in the normally listed alloys and find that the only thing that makes sense is for this to be "foundry metal" -- approximately 15% tin, 23% antimony. This should be wonderful stuff to mix with some wheelweights to make harder alloys for those bullets I want harder. But this sure makes a sorry bullet when cast straight! The ouchy thing for me is that not only did I cast a fair batch of bullets from this, but I got them gas-checked and lubed also. They'll melt back down of course, but I sure wasted a lot of time and gas-checks on my little "assumption".

And I don't know why the bullet doesn't shoot well. It cast beautifully from my 3 moulds I used (a couple 22's and a 25) and should be harder than the hubs of haydes. But I had sorry groups from a couple hornets that normally do much better -- that was last Fall when I shot them and just got around to finally wondering about the bullet metal when I was getting ready to cast some more a few days ago. As others have noted here -- this is a fine time of year to get a batch of bullets cast up. And I have a little batch of real linotype that needs to be poured into something useful. Time to re-do those .22's!

[AJMD429]

Can you re-use the gas checks after you melt the bullets off...?

[GunnyMack]

I'm wondering why it didn't shoot groups! 5 grains different shouldn't make that much difference. I wonder if they didn't 'slug up' to actually stabilize or are they too hard and stripping the rifling?

Reminds me of my 257 Ackley improved, it will not shoot groups at 100, but at 200 it shoots great! So many different powders, bullets, primers combos but it won't shoot at 100. Been scratching my head for years...

[2ndovc]

I'm wondering why it didn't shoot groups! 5 grains different shouldn't make that much difference. I wonder if they didn't 'slug up' to actually stabilize or are they too hard and stripping the rifling?

Reminds me of my 257 Ackley improved, it will not shoot groups at 100, but at 200 it shoots great! So many different powders, bullets, primers combos but it won't shoot at 100. Been scratching my head for years...

That depends a lot on the gun. I have a Sako in .222 Rem that any deviation from 50 grain bullets will go from one bullet almost on top of the other at 100 yds to 2-3" with only a 5 gr. difference.

jb

[Catshooter]

Sorry to hear that Earl. That's a lot of wasted effort. And stinky when you re-melt 'em.

Did you measure the diameters? I would think that with that much antimony in the mix it would not come up to the size you need. Did you check for leading? I would also guess it wouldn't lead as they may be too small but with that much tin/antimony they would be harder than the hinges of hell.

But you're right, it will make a great sweetener for sure!


Cat

[EdinCT]

Earl I was wondering if you melt them down will the checks anneal soft enough to enlarge with one of NOE's gas check expanders?
Might not be worth it with those checks and normal sized hands.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_in ... 9s1m174b01

[Sixgun]

Sorry to hear that Earl. That's a lot of wasted effort. And stinky when you re-melt 'em.Did you measure the diameters? I would think that with that much antimony in the mix it would not come up to the size you need. Did you check for leading? I would also guess it wouldn't lead as they may be too small but with that much tin/antimony they would be harder than the hinges of hell.
But you're right, it will make a great sweetener for sure!
Cat

Yea...weird...I agree with Cat. The hardness was there but possibly not the diameter....when it should have. Mmmmmm....don't have an answer. ---6

[earlmck]

Good thoughts on the diameter, guys. But I miked 'em and the foundry bullets are sitting there at .2255, which is about where the Linotype bullets mike after going through my .225 sizer die. I had gas-checked and sized all the foundry bullets without noticing any different feel from linotype. I think my sizer just barely squeezes them down any; more of a rounding and polishing action. But they must not have cast much different in diameter from the linotype bullets; I'd guess they would be a bit larger if anything.

One thing I read about the foundry type is that it makes super brittle bullets (dinking around on the internet, you can read all kinds of "stuff"). So I just gave one of 'em the "smash" test and sure enough it shattered into a dozen little pieces with one hammer smack. The linotype ones you can hammer pretty much flat without breakup. But I don't think I was having any total break-up with shooting (I read that some folks' foundry bullets wouldn't even get to the target) -- I believe all my foundry bullets got to the target; they just didn't make too good a group. And there was not a trace of leading in the barrels.

I don't think I'll worry about salvaging the gas checks off the re-melted bullets (unless it looks totally easy, which is unlikely). I got a heckuva deal on gas checks from Wideners a few months ago and probably have a lifetime supply of 22 cal checks on the shelf.

And I cast with lots of ventilation so a little smoke from re-melting the lubed bullets is no big deal. I'll just use 'em as a fluxing agent!

[earlmck]

I should have put a picture of the stuff in the original post so you could better see what it was that fooled the kid.

FoundryMetal7362.jpg

FoundryMetal7361.jpg

[Bill in Oregon]

Earl that stuff is almost getting rare enough to be a historical curiosity. Sorry about the mixup!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I can see how one would assume it was Linotype. Those character types in the pictures probably pre-date Linotype ... as they are single letters and not precast lines of typeset. Probably for an older manual set printer.

[w30wcf]

Single letters usually = Monotype of which there are several versions, some having higher amounts of tin and antimony.

Sorry to hear that those bullets don't shoot as well as your lino ones did. Hmmmm.....

How did the sprue cutoff's look on the bullet bases? .
With Monotype, sometimes the sprues have a divot in them and if they are a bit off center that can cause accuracy issues.

If the bullets vary much in weight that can also cause accuracy issues. Do they vary much in weight?

What powder and charge weight are you using?

w30wcf

[earlmck]

Rimfire, you are correct -- this is not broken up type like I stated, but rather individual letters on the end of a rectangular prism, ready to put into position for printing.

And I didn't notice anything different in the casting or the sprue cutting, John. I'm wondering if the extreme brittleness isn't the key to my accuracy problems: I wonder if you don't get some chipping of the driving bands when firing, even though the bullet didn't break totally up, like apparently some people have experienced.

It was amazing to me to see the bullet break into little pieces with a modest hammer blow. Now that is brittle! They really look pretty -- perfectly formed and extra shiny, just like linotype bullets. I can only tell them apart from the lino bullets by weighing them (or maybe whacking them with a hammer )

I've never had any monotype metal to play with -- the monotype I put into my little spreadsheet would have a composition of 9% tin, 19% antimony and this bullet should weigh about 52 grains when the linotype bullet weighs 55 grains. Foundry was the only composition that gave a weight really close to my actual. But if monotype can vary a ways from what I had, then it could certainly have been such. Whatever it is, it has a bunch of tin and antimony in the composition and I am going to use it to mix with wheelweight to give me a little more tin for casting ease and a little more antimony for extra hardening with my water drop procedure. I've used some this way by now and it looks promising.

[w30wcf]

Earl,
The only experience I have had with Momotype bullets was in 30 caliber. I wanted to see if I could push a cast bullet to 2600 f.p.s from my 788 30-30 with accuracy and no leading. Bullet weight was 160 grs. A capacity load of 748 did the trick (around 42 grs as I recall...NOT FOR LEVERGUNS). The bullet was seated about 1/2 the way into the case neck.

My goal was to reach out to the 385 meter steel turkeys and get there as quickly as possible helping to keep wind drift to a minimum.

Thankfully, the load shot very well... as good as the Lino bullets did at around 2350.

I wonder if you sped the bullets up of they would shoot better? I would try shooting bullets that only varied .3 grs. From maximum weight.

What is the sprue diameter on your mold?

w30wcf

[Catshooter]

Nineteen percent Antimony! Wow. Wheel weights have a small percentage of it, and I can mix them 1/2 and 1/2 with pure lead, water drop them and in a week or so get a BHN of about 20.

You know Earl there's a guy on CastBoolits who will analyse your sample. He has an XRF machine (whatever that is ). I have his name if you'd like to try it. He can work with a sample the size of a pencil eraser and very thin. He charges a one pound ingot of lead per sample.


Cat

[Griff]

I bought a 5 gal bucket of linotype about 20 years ago, and the last ½-doz 2-lb ingots from that are on my workbench. Even 20 years ago it was scarce... I wanted it to last, and so... using a recommendation I found on the LASC website, I have always mixed it, 1 part to 6 parts WWs. As cast it has always given me a Bhn of between 18-20 (depending when they're tested), right at .310 from the Saeco #316 mold and with gaschecks, 2200 fps was easy to obtain with good accuracy. When lubed and gaschecked, bullets weight right a 151 grains... Bullets, while hard, have always stood up to a hard smack with my 2-½ lb rounding hammer. Pure linotype, will crack quite deeply and with a 2nd whack, break apart.



I've always felt that anything harder wouldn't be useful from a practical standpoint.

[earlmck]

I knew you fellers would enjoy a little laugh at this kid's minor screw-up. I know I enjoy hearing about yours when you 'fess up . Anyway, I'm not going to worry too much about the actual composition of this stuff. It makes waaay too brittle a bullet for me to trust it even if it seemed to shoot accurately. And it is too valuable for alloying to waste it. I popped out about a thousand of the 32/20 bullets I like to use in several different rifles using a mix of 1# of "mystery metal" (which is probably wheelweight as judged by the fingernail test) with 3 oz of this foundry? metal and it makes a nice bullet that I am in the process of gas checking and sizing to .313, .311, and .309 for use in the various shooters.

[Catshooter]

Sounds like a good mix Earl. What .30 caliber mould are you using it in?


Cat

[earlmck]

Cat, you've probably already hit it, but I posted a picture and description over on Griff's "what did you do in reloading today" thread. Ranch Dog 117 grain in the Lee 6-cavity. Fan Tooosty Tastic mold!

[Catshooter]

Ah yes, sweet mould.


Cat