What is the round-nosed lead pistol bullet good for?

[Bill in Oregon]

Is there a place/use for round-nosed lead handgun bullets in this day and age? I have been so preoccupied with some variant of a Keith or an LBT -- a flat point and meplat of some sort -- that I had pretty much given up on round-nosed slugs for anything more than plinking and target work. I ask because I recently broke down and ordered the Lee 429-240-2R just to assemble somewhat historically correct .44 Russian loads. Of course, a roundnose will let the air of out of most critters eventually, but it seems surprising that it lingered so long other than to comply with the "rules of war" and to address feeding issues in some platforms. It wasn't all that long ago that most LEOs were carrying a revolver loaded with 158-grain RN .38 Specials.

[JimT]

Jim Cirillo and his “Stakeout Squad” took out huge number of bad guys using the old .38 Special 158 gr. roundnose ..which was what was issued to them by the NYPD. They made it work through training and good tactics. People have an aversion to being shot, even with roundnose bullets.

PS (edit) I regularly carry the 45ACP with hardball. I prefer that to JHP bullets. Especially in the winter.

[earlmck]

PS I regularly carry the 45ACP with hardball. I prefer that to JHP bullets. Especially in the winter.

And "hardball" just plain sounds much more deadly than "roundnose".

[JimT]

Yep. And they give the two things I want: reliability and penetration.

[4t5]

This ^^^

[Ray Newman]

"They made it work through training and good tactics. People have an aversion to being shot, even with roundnose bullets."

--Jim T

BINGO! We have a winner here!

[Ray]

You could do worse.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Na73eUbcw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtdd6NMNk28

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ_3Xzpa-Bk

[Malamute]

Jim Cirillo and his “Stakeout Squad” took out huge number of bad guys using the old .38 Special 158 gr. roundnose ..which was what was issued to them by the NYPD. They made it work through training and good tactics. People have an aversion to being shot, even with roundnose bullets.

PS (edit) I regularly carry the 45ACP with hardball. I prefer that to JHP bullets. Especially in the winter.

Its not really telling the whole story accurately to simply say "took out huge number of bad guys using the old .38 Special 158 gr. roundnose" and imply they were preferred or thought they worked well. They used them because they were issued, not because he thought they were a good design. He actively sought and tried various better loads in everything, including 45 auto. He preferred a sharp edged wadcutter cup point style bullet, or his design of a serrated front sharp edged bullet, as any RN type tend to glance off bones and skulls.

Im curious why use fmj in winter instead of hollowpoints?

[Ray]

You all are all obsessed with meplats.....

What you need are some pointy bullets.....

https://www.mattsbullets.com/125-grain- ... k-359.html

https://www.mattsbullets.com/215-Grain- ... p_172.html

[JimT]

Jim Cirillo and his “Stakeout Squad” took out huge number of bad guys using the old .38 Special 158 gr. roundnose ..which was what was issued to them by the NYPD. They made it work through training and good tactics. People have an aversion to being shot, even with roundnose bullets.

PS (edit) I regularly carry the 45ACP with hardball. I prefer that to JHP bullets. Especially in the winter.

Its not really telling the whole story accurately to simply say "took out huge number of bad guys using the old .38 Special 158 gr. roundnose" and imply they were preferred or thought they worked well. They used them because they were issued, not because he thought they were a good design. He actively sought and tried various better loads in everything, including 45 auto. He preferred a sharp edged wadcutter cup point style bullet, or his design of a serrated front sharp edged bullet, as any RN type tend to glance off bones and skulls.

Im curious why use fmj in winter instead of hollowpoints?

That is quite true about Mr. Cirillo. What I was trying badly to do was point out that they can be made to work and that if you work at it, they can be made to work.

I prefer to use the roundnose hardball because it was designed to stop a human aggressor and it gives much better penetration than hollowpoints. Shooting through various thicknesses of heavy clothing can really work against penetration by hollowpoints. I would rather have exit wounds than not. Other than the hardball I like a hardcast 230 gr. flat meplat bullet.

IMG_5572a.jpg

[44shooter]

Plain old LRN UMC rounds in 38 and 44 specials did surprising well in Gun Sam’s gel tests. They didn’t really over penetrate either. I have seen him shoot a fmj 38 clean through two blocks though. Same with 40 but less surprising. I do prefer HPs for defense though.

Didn’t someone here say 45 acp RN couldn’t kill rabbits reliably? Hard for me to imagine but I haven’t tried it. Even cheap pneumatic pellet rifles kill them readily within reasonable range.

[elmo123]

You have to remember that law enforcement is only meant to stop the individual which means after they recover from their non-fatal wounds then they have their day in court.
As a former police officer I know that sounds ridiculous but the politicians will put your name on a plaque posthumously if the thug kills you because your bullet didn't fully incapacitate him/her. Most don't care and 50 years ago there wasn't much variety in factory ammunition.

We had one thug shoot another that was seated in the front passenger seat of an automobile when he bent forward. The bullet entered in the middle of his back on the right side and followed the skin around his side and exited in his belly after simply following the skin and didn't penetrate any deeper than a 1/2", he refused medical treatment and prosecution.

I worked another shooting where the boyfriend was thumbing the hammer on a Colt Agent with a broken hammer spur when the weapon discharged striking the girlfriend in the neck. The bullet passed through her neck striking the carotid artery which killed her and exited her body coming to rest inside a mattress.

Both of these shootings have several things in common both are 38 spl. snub nose revolvers and both were 158 Gr. round nose standard velocity loads.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Is there a place/use for round-nosed lead handgun bullets in this day and age?

Short answer, yes.

Traditional round nose lead bullets generally shoot pretty well. The design was developed over years of people having experience with firearms.

A round nose lead projectile loads quickly and easily into a revolver chamber, probably better than any other design.

While a flat meplat may be more effective on flesh, I don’t know how to reliably calculate how much more effective.

That’s why sometimes I wonder why I bother looking for more effective loads. Plain old vanilla has worked for many years.

[AmBraCol]

To get back to the original question, round nose bullets definitely have a place and can be quite useful. Say you have two resolvers of the same caliber, but with different intents and purposes. One a 357 Manglem for hunting and through which you occasionally shoot hot loaded 38 Spl. And the other a copy of the old open top Colt cartridge shootin' descendent of the cap and ball resolvers of the 19th Century. You do NOT want to be running hot loaded 38's through that platform, so here's the RNL to the rescue. Load your RNL projectiles in mild loads for use in the open top and that way you know at a glance the type of load you've got in your hand. If you always load the RNL at mild levels then you know it's safe for that platform.

The same would hold true for break top "gats" or other less robust designs that you're not likely to be taking out for lions, tigers, elephants and such. It makes for a simple way to classify loads and prevent confusion. This isn't to say you couldn't load SWC, HP and so on with mild loads, it's about using a "less desirable profile" in a desirable way. I'd always eschewed the RNL in favor of other styles, but Jared S proposed (and uses) the above scenario and it makes a load of sense.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I do that as well. Round noses indicate a lesser charge of powder.

.38 it means 3 gr Bullseye
.44 it means 6 gr Unique
.45 it means 8 gr. Unique

SWC is a bit more

.38 means 5 gr Unique
.44 means 7.5 gr Unique

[Bill in Oregon]

I probably should have phrased this something like "Would you choose a round-nosed bullet for use in a revolver?"
I fully understand their usefulness in semiautomatic handguns.

[AmBraCol]

I probably should have phrased this something like "Would you choose a round-nosed bullet for use in a revolver?"
I fully understand their usefulness in semiautomatic handguns.

Here I'm forced to do so. No other (legal) options. But up north? As outlined above - yep. I shot a bunch up last June in Raton doing a variety of drills under supervision. The lower power level made control of my Model 10 much easier and more similar to what I shoot down here anyway.

[Grizz]

I probably should have phrased this something like "Would you choose a round-nosed bullet for use in a revolver?"
I fully understand their usefulness in semiautomatic handguns.

Hi Bill. depends on what they are used for . . . It comes down to what you want the bullet to do, and what you don't want it to do. .....here's a penetration test of round nose bullets from a 1911. That load was specifically designed to load flawlessly in that gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JknqVQDslZs

if they are shot from a 5" blackhawk or SAA, would there be any difference in the results? Round nose 45s have remarkable penetration. As do 22lr...

grizz

[JimT]

Penetration of .22 Long Rifle = A friend of mine was shot in the back with a .22 Long Rifle solid fired from a rifle. He was in the front seat of his car and his boy got in the back seat and accidentally shot through the back of the front seat. The bullet penetrated the car seat, went through his clothing and hit a lower rib in the right side of his back. It then deflected down and exited his right buttock, went down through the car seat and hit a piece of metal, turned 90 degrees forward and went into the calf of his right leg.

He had to drive himself to the hospital as his son was 12 years old and didn't drive. It didn't hit anything that caused major leakage but he was laid up for awhile.

[Eddie Southgate]

Melting down to make SWC out of.

[Bill in Oregon]

Eddie, a man after my own heart ...

[buckeyeshooter]

plinking or cowboy action shooting are great for round nose lead bullets. I don't think I would want to be shot with one myself.

[Bill in Oregon]

I wish it would warm up enough so I can comfortably cast in the garage. I've got the .430-240 RNs to cast for .44 Russian and the .312-185s to cast for the Argentine Mauser. The RN might not be my first choice, but they are handsomely traditional.

[Bob Hatfield]

The 38 Special round nose lead did pretty well in Paul Harrell's meat target. Better than the hollow points that didn't expand.

Seems I remember when Bianchi cup shooters used to shoot the round nose 158 grain 38 bullet because it was easier to load with speed loaders than other styles.

I have always found that a 158gr. RN lead bullet shot tighter groups than a 158 SWC in my 38 reloads using 3.5 gr. of Bullseye.

Bob

[Grizz]

The 38 Special round nose lead did pretty well in Paul Harrell's meat target. Better than the hollow points that didn't expand.

Seems I remember when Bianchi cup shooters used to shoot the round nose 158 grain 38 bullet because it was easier to load with speed loaders than other styles.

I have always found that a 158gr. RN lead bullet shot tighter groups than a 158 SWC in my 38 reloads using 3.5 gr. of Bullseye.

Bob

they seem to do well coming out of 1911, even tho they have copper nose jobs. they kill horses and cows and chickens and hoplites and pigs and terrs . . . . seems like they fulfilled the design requirements.

[piller]

I don't want to be shot with anything, thank you very much. That said, I am not expecting anyone who is not high to stay put and absorb several bullets. High perpetrators are a different issue.