NOT Your Grandpappy's Levergun..........

[Old No7]

Nope -- that's NOT your grandpappy's levergun.....

Lever Gun 2022.jpg

Turns out it's not your grandpappy either!

Old No7

[AJMD429]

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LOL - thank goodness (but my grandfather was five years old when General Custer was killed, so times were different, as were leverguns).

It is funny though, how we embrace the latest bolt-action or semiauto technology and push it to the limit, yet not with leverguns.

I guess it is because leverguns are kind of nostalgic, and fill a niche between the muzzleloader and the semiauto in terms of 'tactical' application and ability. If one is going to use a muzzleloader, one surely accepts the fact that is will be SLOW and is mostly a one-shot-kill hunting firearm in today's world, or a match-gun for specifically limited 'muzzleloading' competitions, or just a nostalgic range-toy or collectible (nothing wrong with that, any more than with a flint-lock or match-lock).

To 'modernize' a muzzleloader is mostly done to get around hunting or other regulatory issues, and no matter what optics or gizmos are put on a muzzleloader, IF it is allowed to compete one-on-one vs any repeating rifle, it will be hard to contrive a circumstance where the muzzleloader is superior overall. (Perhaps in a survival no-primers-available situation, but even then for the first decade or so that any of us would be remotely likely to survive, hoarding or stealing conventional ammunition to feed a cartridge gun would likely be more practical than making our own powder and bullets and caps.)

The levergun, however, is in beteween the AR-15 and the Kentucky Flintlock - a fast-shooting cartridge gun, that is ALSO very nostalgic and practical EVEN TODAY. Thus, one could argue it needs no 'modification' to be a reasonable contender for 'tactical' use that surpasses any other 19th Century arm, and really is about as good as any 20th Century arm up until Mini-14's and AR's became available to the public. Even then, the levergun is capable of almost any situation involving animal predators (perhaps a pack of hyenas or feral hogs would favor a semiauto over a levergun), and darn near any 2-legged predator situation unless extreme. BUT as a result of being 'capable' of such things, of course people will try to 'improve' on the basic levergun design, and have.

How much 'improvement' one is going to tolerate or desire is going to depend on where they sit in terms of their use, the 'nostalgia' factor, and so on. Few situations require ditching the wood stock (though I really hate rusted magazine tubes so like the idea of something other than wood and/or a free-floated tube), but 'traditional' levergun sights stink. At a MINIMUM most of us benefit from an aperture sight, or sometimes a scope for old eyes, dusk/dawn shooting, or high precision. For 'ranch' use I find a red dot, and a light to be vital, and a laser sight very helpful. On the other hand, some don't even want to adulterate their pristine levergun with sling swivels.

If I only hunted deer in daylight, I'd 'only' mess up my walnut-and-blued-steel leverguns with a Williams FP sight.

If I were going to live in Brooklyn NY or take a tour of the Middle East, I'd want a levergun SBR with integral suppressor, aluminum folding stock and forend, extra ammo caddy, and dot/laser/light setup (heck, maybe I'd even want night-vision laser target designation stuff).

If I were going to live in a tent in the Bayous or Alaska, I'd probably want stainless or nitrided metal.

It all just depends....

I figure we should all have a few leverguns set up every which way we can, 'just in case'...

(...I got the Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger a few years back just in case some cape buffalo escape from the zoo that's only 30 or so miles away....you can't be too careful, you know...! )

[crs]

"It is funny though, how we embrace the latest bolt-action or semiauto technology and push it to the limit, yet not with leverguns."

Could this be that the latest ammo is all that is really needed with the levergun? See post copied from just above:

Gents,
Great idea, but no such new cartridge or such changes to the 1886 are needed as this performance objective was done several years ago by our bullet testing team using my 1886 45-90 and 86ers 1886 45-70. That project was proven on Safari in Africa and the results posted on this forum. I have since posted details on multiple forums.
In a nutshell, we drove the North Fork 450 grain FPS (flat point solid) at 2150 fps MV and that shot through ele head and Cape Buffs and in Texas, bison.

The .45-90 cartridge has 96 percent the case capacity of the .458 Win Mag and with modern powders and bullets easily and safely achieves the velocity of the Win Mag.
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I also have a new 45-90 double rifle that should be very effective on big game. In fact my son and I will be using it on a cull hunt in central Texas this month.
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As you know, the 45-70 1886 can easily be modified to shoot both 45-70 and 45-90 ammo, so anyone with a modern 1886 can easily have their own 45-90 elephant rifle!
As an aside, I also have A Winchester 1895 .405 WCF and a Simson Suhl .405 WCF double rifle. The 1895 has used 400 grain Woodies to take Cape BUff in Africa and equals the 450/400 DR in performance.
It can be rewarding to use a dated, but proven rifle design and use it with modern ammo components to take down large and dangerous game. Oh yes our Leopard cartridge was the 45-90 with the .458 Nosler PP at 2200 fps -- devastating on thin skinned game! After the .45-90 DR is proven in the field, I will post a report with more info and better pix.
CRS, NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

[Grizz]

Crs, totally agree with your experience and choice of guns and cartridges. sounds like a one-gun solution for the hunting grounds. looking forward to your data.

[Grizz]

i look at this a little differently. Doc, how would you think about your setup if you were in eastern Ukraine anticipating hordes of russians piling up in the town squares?

when we left Alaska to be closer to the grand kids, the only reason anyone moves... and i read the basic home invasion scenario that was going on then, and is going on now, i changed my entire POV based on the ammo and it's availability....

I armed up with semi-auto, detachable magazine firearms that used nato caliber ammo. thus 7.62 and 5.56 and 9mm and 45 ACP, and 12ga... based on the probability that if "it" happens here, battlefield pickups would be the most likely source of supply. this was mostly based on the crime stats at that time.

if we were in Ukraine in the East with no possibility of escape, every dead russian would be our gun store, ammo store, shoe store, etc. i'm guessing my guide gun, after wasting the rank and file, would wind up on the street, and i'd be throwing as much ak ammo and mags into the satchel and running for cover.

i still pray it won't come to this. but i have no romantic notions about how groovy my 10 round winchester 357 is IN THE UKRAINE Scenario

too much coffee? IDK

[Coalsmoke]

That ain't Grandpappy's levergun and that surely ain't Grandma.

I'm on board with everything going on there except whatever that is sticking off the top of the rifle. Is that a red dot? That would require a chin weld.

[AJMD429]

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...agree on the semiauto if more than your basic home-burglar or meth-head the issue.

In Ukraine I guess if I had to rely on a levergun it would be a ‘militarized’ one for sure, but ultimately I’m sure I’d wind up with a ‘high capacity military style semiauto’. Even a full auto if available.

As to ‘chin weld’ that’s what I grew up using since my 22 LR had a high scope mount, so ‘cheek weld’ feels unnatural anyway.

[AJMD429]

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...agree on the semiauto if more than your basic home-burglar or meth-head the issue.

In Ukraine I guess if I had to rely on a levergun it would be a ‘militarized’ one for sure, but ultimately I’m sure I’d wind up with a ‘high capacity military style semiauto’. Even a full auto if available.

As to ‘chin weld’ that’s what I grew up using since my 22 LR had a high scope mount, so ‘cheek weld’ feels unnatural anyway.

[piller]

Nope. She doesn't look like my Grandpa.
I would use what I have to stop an invading threat, and then scavenge Military equipment from the bodies. A lever action could put out enough accurate rounds in a short time to do a lot of damage. Her clothing is too visible. Bare arms give the enemy a good visual of where center mass is located.

Reloading with a lever action is slower than with a magazine loaded semiautomatic. Just being prepared and thinking can help minimize the time difference.

[AJMD429]

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It would be interesting if someone could make a lever gun that had replaceable magazines of the tubular type. I know there are several box magazine lever guns around, though none of them that I'm aware of have particularly high capacity magazines.

Whether or not tubular magazines could be designed to be slipped in and replaced would be an interesting engineering question. Perhaps the magazine could actually not have a spring, and somehow rely on the spring being part of the rifle.

It would certainly be fun to take a traditional looking lever gun to an AR-15 type match and be able to run the course without special considerations.

[Grizz]

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It would be interesting if someone could make a lever gun that had replaceable magazines of the tubular type. I know there are several box magazine lever guns around, though none of them that I'm aware of have particularly high capacity magazines.

Whether or not tubular magazines could be designed to be slipped in and replaced would be an interesting engineering question. Perhaps the magazine could actually not have a spring, and somehow rely on the spring being part of the rifle.

It would certainly be fun to take a traditional looking lever gun to an AR-15 type match and be able to run the course without special considerations.

there is an analog to that Doc. Sorta.
some guys will preload 22s into a plastic tube, and load the rifle's tube magazine from the ammo tube. must be true, i saw it on the interwebs

[AJMD429]

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Yep- same with shotguns.
Then there was a levergun with three tubular magazines that rotated into place.

[Griff]

It would be interesting if someone could make a lever gun that had replaceable magazines of the tubular type. I know there are several box magazine lever guns around, though none of them that I'm aware of have particularly high capacity magazines.
Whether or not tubular magazines could be designed to be slipped in and replaced would be an interesting engineering question. Perhaps the magazine could actually not have a spring, and somehow rely on the spring being part of the rifle.
It would certainly be fun to take a traditional looking lever gun to an AR-15 type match and be able to run the course without special considerations.

there is an analog to that Doc. Sorta.
some guys will preload 22s into a plastic tube, and load the rifle's tube magazine from the ammo tube. must be true, i saw it on the interwebs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EbnnOiB2w

[MS 9x56]

I can just imagine JM rolling over in his grave

[Grizz]

Perfect. Thanks Griff. Have you done this? it seems like a good plan for some situations. like GrandKids !

[Swagman]

Yes, Well!!, I wonder how her shoulder will feel after sending a dozen 45/70 pills down range!