accuracy difference between calibres?

[mickbr]

Fellas anyone notice general accuracy trends between pistol calibre lever actions. I know its gun/load dependant but wondered if there was any trend to show say 44, or 45 or 357 does better. One thing I was thinking, if we are talking light loads, powders might move around less in a 38special than say a 45colt and give less variations at range. I also heard 45 colt can have chamber variations in some lever guns, and a degree of blowback?

[JimT]

Most accuracy problems can be traced to the nut holding the stock.

[Grizz]

mickbr:

sri if this sounded snarky...,

I know that some firearms don't perform the way I expect them to. my daughter's early version stainless rossi 92 in 45 Colt sprays bullets. have not solved that one, but I can shoot a circle around a rock that I can pulverise with other arms. i quit shooting it because it isn't mine and i don't want to spend time sorting it.

My wife's Winchester 9422, physically immaculate, sprays bullets too. By this I mean that when shooting little steel flippers, we miss often, which is not our experience with other firearms. My wife is a good shot and is a good check on me...

I think inherent accuracy is an engineering consideration. Practical accuracy has more to do with a particular gun with a particular cartridge in the hands of a reliably consistent shooter.

For example I always liked watching Blaine shoot my guns because he is a crack shot, and I can double-check my loads with him. Back in the day anyway. :)

[marlinman93]

A lot goes into accuracy, and generally speaking it also depends on caliber a bit. Larger calibers mean bigger bullets, and heavier bullets are not as affected by the wind as lighter bullets are. But that also depends on time in the air, so velocity has a bit to do with it, and distance to the target also.
Of course the shooter, and the gun have a great deal to do with it too. But I personally find my shooting with larger bore diameters is better than it is with smaller bores.

[mikld]

I had a similar (same) question a while back (20 years + and never got an answer just "my 64 cal bolt gun was way more accurate than my 33 cal. pump."), and perhaps my question fits here. Is there any caliber that is inherently, generally in all guns, with any load, more accurate? I fully understand each gun is different, each load is different, etc. but generally is one caliber (not necessarily cartridge) better than others.? Like is a 44 caliber more accurate, across the board than a 38 cal or 30 cal.?

I don't think this is a hijack, just worded differently...

[Scott Tschirhart]

I find that my .38/.357 leverguns will generally shoot better than my .44 and .45 Colt guns.

However, that is not necessarily true with handguns in the same calibers. I think that some .44 and .45 guns have oversized bores, and they shoot better with oversized cast bullets.

[Grizz]

I had a similar (same) question a while back (20 years + and never got an answer just "my 64 cal bolt gun was way more accurate than my 33 cal. pump."), and perhaps my question fits here. Is there any caliber that is inherently, generally in all guns, with any load, more accurate? I fully understand each gun is different, each load is different, etc. but generally is one caliber (not necessarily cartridge) better than others.? Like is a 44 caliber more accurate, across the board than a 38 cal or 30 cal.?

I don't think this is a hijack, just worded differently...

I was pursuaded by my 7mm rifles that some 7mm rounds seem to have inherent accuracy, something i cannot prove. I mainly derived the notion from watching others shoot my rifles/loads. The Rem had a peep sight at the rear scope mount, so a very fine sight picture, less wiggle room. Maybe that was a factor.

[AJMD429]

Theoretically the first component would be the shape of the bullet. You could more or less make the same shape bullet in any diameter, so theoretically any caliber could be essentially the same as any other in terms of external ballistics.

However then the realities of action length and cartridge design come in to play. You can have straight-walled cartridges or bottleneck cartridges, and either type can be long or short to alter the powder capacity and rate of burn.

All that stuff starts affecting the size and weight of the gun and the vibration and so on.

So far though all the ‘pistol caliber leverguns’ should be reasonably similar as they are all straight-walled cases with similar profiles (...but I’m thinking the 357 starts to be longer-for-caliber bullets maybe in the ones we usually use...?)

Then finally, you get conventions in the gun builds that we have to choose from. Rifling twists sometimes are illogical and more convention than science, and it always seems to me like the 45 colt chambers in leverguns are a bit sloppy, because the cases have a lot more bulge in them versus the other cartridges I shoot out of the same model firearm. Stuff like that “doesn’t have to be” but “is“...

So I think in the theoretical world you could create guns in about four calibers ranging from 20 to 50, with maybe short and long straight-walled cases and small and large bottle-neck cases, and those 16 cartridges could cover every conceivable need and all be maximally accurate within the possibilities of physics..... but then that would be so boring...

[piller]

There is also chamber lead length. Many factors seem to be in play here, but some older revolvers seem to be a problem due to too loose chambers and too tight forcing cones. More modern recolvers in .357 Magnum seem to have that issue engineered out.
My Blackhawk in .45 Colt with the extra cylinder in .45 ACP seems to be more accurate with the .45 ACP rounds no matter the manufacturer or how I load up the .45 Colt rounds. Could it be that the approximately .001 inch difference in diameter on average is enough to make a difference in accuracy? I do not know.

[piller]

I could try using .451 diameter bulles when they become available again.

[JimT]

If you read Dr. E. B. Mann's book "THE BULLET'S FLIGHT" you will note that a lot of inaccuracy problems come from between the time the bullet exits the cartridge until it is fully engaged in the rifling. Given a good leade and good rifling in the barrel, the next large issue is the muzzle.

My Dad's cousin was a benchrest rifleman. He had more than a couple Model 52 Winchester .22 rimfire target rifles and all but one would stay under an inch at 100 yards. He rebarreled it and gave the barrel to my Dad. It took Dad a while to discover it, but the chamber was off to one side quite a few thousandths of an inch.

Dad cut the chamber end off the barrel and rechambered it. We put that barrel on a single shot action. It proved to be superbly accurate.

One thing I sometimes do to "see" how a gun lines up is to fire a low velocity load and catch the bullet in a pile of cloth. 400 to 500 fps at the most. You can read the rifling easily and see if the bullet is entering the bore the way it should .. see if there are any weird markings on it etc.

[piller]

Jim, does that work with jacketed bullets?

[JimT]

Jim, does that work with jacketed bullets?

I am sure it does to at least some degree. Probably more than I realize. I know the muzzle can really affect jacketed bullets in rifles. And jacketed bullets exhibit some of the same problems that lead bullets have .. such as "skidding" in the rifling.

[JB]

Jim, does that work with jacketed bullets?

Yes, it's common practice when loading for accuracy to try and get as little "jump" from the chamber to the rifling as possible.

[octagon]

Jim I read "The Bullets Flight" years ago, with Pope's annotated margins, and found it fascinating. Loaned it to a brother, also into ballistics at the "nerd" level. Wouldn't it be great to gather Pope barrels at your convenience.

[JimT]

Jim I read "The Bullets Flight" years ago, with Pope's annotated margins, and found it fascinating. Loaned it to a brother, also into ballistics at the "nerd" level. Wouldn't it be great to gather Pope barrels at your convenience.

I have a Stevens single shot .22 rimfire that my grandfather bought back in the early 1900's. It has a Pope barrel. The old gun is still amazingly accurate. It now resides in the safe, waiting my oldest grandson to grow up a bit. It goes from Grandfather to Grandson ....

[octagon]

That s what I call first class Grandpawin.

[Sixgun]

None....

There's these guns I've heard about....real big ones people tell me......they claim the groove diameter is 16" wide and they can lob a 2500 pound projectile 25 miles into a football field if they so choose.

Caliber means nothing....it's all mechanical with a healthy dose of science and external factors thrown in for the longer ranges.

[piller]

Jim, does that work with jacketed bullets?

I am sure it does to at least some degree. Probably more than I realize. I know the muzzle can really affect jacketed bullets in rifles. And jacketed bullets exhibit some of the same problems that lead bullets have .. such as "skidding" in the rifling.

I will have to remember that trick and try to catch a bullet on a pile of cloth from one old rifle I have in mind. I am curious as to why it is having accuracy issues.

[44shooter]

I'm not sure. Some cartridges have reputations of great accuracy and some not so much but I've seen more variation in guns and loads than I have in cartridges. But I've never seen a 357 revolver or 45 acp of any type than didn't shoot well. Both cartridges generally have a good reputation for accuracy. All my 44s seem to do fine too. Some of this I believe is in consistency in optimal dimensions for some chamberings over time more so than a certain size being more accurate.

[mikld]

Not wanting to be a jerk, but let me try and simplify my question; which caliber, diameter of a bullet would be intrinsically more accurate? A round nose, designed weight bullet compared to another diameter, round nose designed weight bullet fired from the same universal receiver (and similar designed and age/used barrel)?

I appreciate all the theory "explained", but asking a simple answer for a simple question. I understand many/most of the variable accuracy factors, but this being the third time I've attempted to find an answer. (I own approx. 8 different caliber guns, I understand 90% of accuracy is based on the gun and it's ammo preferences. Is there an answer?

My apologies to mickbr for the hijack.

[Blaine]

My SWAG (simple wild-azzed guess) is that a bullet that is heavy for calibre starts out with an advantage. YMMV

[stretch]

"Most accuracy problems can be traced to the nut holding the stock. "

Ain't it the truth.....

-Stretch

[piller]

That is why I recommend using a Caldwell rest to eliminate as many variables as possible. Once in a while it is the gun. Just look at that video AJMD linked to.