It's a leveraction... Without the lever. Robinson rifles.

[cas]

More great stuff from Forgotten Weapons.

http://youtu.be/VahWx2v6rxQ



And another gun/companyWinchester killed. After seeing all these companies they bought out and squashed, I'm starting to think of them as "the gun that bought the west".

[M. M. Wright]

Dang! Rossi or somebody needs to pursue that adjustable cartridge length feature. Henry, are you watching? I can see that little adjustable cartridge stop being a useful thing on 38/357 or 44 Spec/44 Mag. Any combo similar could greatly benefit from it. 45 Colt/45 AR?

[marlinman93]

If it was a great system, it would have been much more successful. There's a reason some guns were made in small quantities, and others in millions.

[jkbrea]

I read where the military, prior to semi-auto weapons, never really bought off on leveractions because of the difficulty of operating it while prone and keeping low. I don't know if that's true or not but that toggle switch would have/could have eliminated that issue, but it seems there were other considerations.


"Lever-action rifles are said to offer a slightly faster rate of fire when compared to military bolt-actions. The main drawback is that lever-action rifles are more difficult to operate when firing from the prone position, a common firing position of the era, and when firing over trench parapets. It noticeably reduced the rate of fire from such a position. The under-barrel tubular magazine used on most lever-action rifles was not conducive to pointed military bullets and had to be loaded one-round-at-a-time; no rapid-loading charger clips. Lever-action rifles are more susceptible to dirt and fouling and most could not deal with the increased chamber pressures generated by modern smokeless powder military cartridges. They were not as accurate at long ranges as bolt-action rifles and the available cartridges, being lower powered than most of the era’s military cartridges, did not have the necessary long range then desired. Because most lever-actions ejected spent cartridges from the top of the receiver they could not mount telescopes, which was also a drawback for hunting rifles, although this was not much of a military consideration at the time. The Model of 1895 had the reputation of generating a hard kick owing to its high-powered cartridges and the design of its shoulder stock."

[Blaine]

It looks slow to operate. And slow is just slow.

[cas]

If it was a great system, it would have been much more successful. There's a reason some guns were made in small quantities, and others in millions.

Often that reason was Winchester bought the company and killed it.

[Chuck 100 yd]

If it was a great system, it would have been much more successful. There's a reason some guns were made in small quantities, and others in millions.

That action did not make it for a reason, that is for sure. It looks to be very weak design and very little to no leverage to seat or extract a round from the chamber. There are many interesting but total failures in the gun world.

[Blaine]

If it was a great system, it would have been much more successful. There's a reason some guns were made in small quantities, and others in millions.

That action did not make it for a reason, that is for sure. It looks to be very weak design and very little to no leverage to seat or extract a round from the chamber. There are many interesting but total failures in the gun world.

It would be deadly trying to work that action with bloody hands in a battle if you life was on the line, and ebbing from your body.

[sore shoulder]

It looks slow to operate. And slow is just slow.

Yep, slow is what I was thinking too. And awkward.

[44shooter]

The brass rifle is pretty much a straight pull bolt action. The ferrous one is a lever action is reverse. I think either would be fast enough for 1870s technology.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Winchester also bought something like 14 patents from John Browning that they never produced. They just didn't want anyone else to produce them.

[Griff]

Winchester bought some 34 Browning firearm patents and only produced 10 of them.

Sure wish I could hear the commentary on the video. Since all I had were visuals, it sure made me want to replace some screws!

[marlinman93]

If it was a great system, it would have been much more successful. There's a reason some guns were made in small quantities, and others in millions.

Often that reason was Winchester bought the company and killed it.

Winchester was often known to buy competitors who fell on hard times, and simply close them down to eliminate the chance of someone else keeping them alive and competing. But they never wasted money buying unsuccessful designs or the companies who built them. If a company didn't build/sell enough to cut into Winchester sales, they simply left them to die of their own accord.
Whitney Arms got the Winchester treatment, as they were a viable competitor. Winchester attempted to do the same with Remington, but couldn't muster the funds to purchase it alone. Marcellus Hartley of Hartley, Schuyler & Graham stepped in to partner with Winchester, and wouldn't allow Oliver Winchester to shut Remington down. He eventually bought Winchester out, and owned Remington outright.
Winchester didn't buy Robinson, as it was no threat to him.

[marlinman93]

There's more to military trials and acceptance than just a good design! It wasn't unusual for those overseeing the tests to get some under the table influence when it came to choosing the winner. High up Generals also had very little regard for the average troops also. They didn't like repeating rifles because they stated that troops would "waste ammunition" if they had a gun that held more rounds, and shot faster. They loved single shot rifles, because it slowed their rate of fire, and made them take more care with each shot. (they thought!) Unfortunately, it took massacres and loss of lives when troops came up against enemies armed with repeating rifles, before they finally gave in and approved the Krag bolt action.

[Mike Armstrong]

There's a good example of that rifle in The Adirondack Museum, in case anybody is traveling thru upstate NYS. Plus other historic guns from back when NYS was a major firearms producer, a great collection of handmade wooden boats, a native American garden with detailed explanation of their agriculture, and a nearby state butterfly preserve/garden. A neat place to visit, but if you go there in the summer, GET THERE EARLY--you won't like it when all the tourist buses arrive!

And yes, the US needs patent reform and has needed it for about a century. One of the things I DO agree with Ron Paul about!

[sore shoulder]

There's more to military trials and acceptance than just a good design! It wasn't unusual for those overseeing the tests to get some under the table influence when it came to choosing the winner. High up Generals also had very little regard for the average troops also. They didn't like repeating rifles because they stated that troops would "waste ammunition" if they had a gun that held more rounds, and shot faster. They loved single shot rifles, because it slowed their rate of fire, and made them take more care with each shot. (they thought!) Unfortunately, it took massacres and loss of lives when troops came up against enemies armed with repeating rifles, before they finally gave in and approved the Krag bolt action.

A prime example of the disconnect between the reality of boots on the ground, and the arrogant ideals and underhanded deals of seat polishing bearucrats.

[Daisyman]

More great stuff from Forgotten Weapons.

http://youtu.be/VahWx2v6rxQ



And another gun/companyWinchester killed. After seeing all these companies they bought out and squashed, I'm starting to think of them as "the gun that bought the west".

A while back I showed my Winchester 66 carbine on here that I bought from a Midwestern farmer back in the 80's. I didn't have all the money with me at the time, so I met with him a week later to buy it, and he brought 2 other rifles along to see if I was interested in them, also. One of them was that first model Robinson. I was fascinated by it, and looked at it for a long time, but I had to scratch to get enough money to buy the 66. Another reason I didn't was that it had a chip out of the stock on the upper right hand side, just like that one!! You don't suppose......but, if my memory serves me right, the one he brought was in much better condition than that one. It really got my attention when I saw this one. Oh, and the price......$600 for the pair! I probably should have tried a little harder to scrape up the money, but when you're raising a family, there's other places to go with it.
Irv

[Lefty Dude]

Even the Krag Springfield has a single shot cut-off on the magazine.

[Mike Armstrong]

I wonder how many times that cutoff got used in combat! I'd say, like, NEVER. One of my grandfathers fought in the Spanish War in the Philippines, but his volunteer regiment was stuck with Trapdoor Springfields. He stayed on and took a commission in the regular Army and fought the Moros with a Krag later, and always GREATLY preferred it.

[donw]

the Russian army and the Canadian RCMP used lever actions for a while if i recall my history correctly.

the Americans came up against the '93-95 Mauser in Cuba with their Krags and Springfield trap-doors and it was then the US Army decided the Krag and Springfield trap-doors had to go...thus the '03 appeared...

it's also interesting to note that Teddy Roosevelt's unit purchased their own Colt "Potato digger" machine guns for the Cuban foray.