Deleted - May be Bovine Scat

[jdad]

I'm starting to smell something, so I deleted the link. It didn't show up in Snopes.com, but..........

[mescalero1]

Thanks,
That is so wrong

[CowboyTutt]

Jdad, I drove through the remains of Greensburg in the summer of '07 on my way to Wichita, KS. to visit my Grandmother. The amount of devastation I saw was truly jaw-dropping amazing. I hate to give a disenting opinion, but only a irrational person would stay knowing a potential F5 tornado was on its way. You pack up your stuff, and get out of town. I don't think its right what happened regarding people's firearms, but it is not unusual for the cockroaches of society to come out and take advantage during times of trouble when they know they can get away with it. I have some nice things in my small apartment, but the only things of true irraplacable value are my firearms, most of which are customized. The rest I can probably replace. I would throw them in the car and go. Whether or not martial law is declared or not, or people were forced out of their homes, or not, is sort of immaterial to me under those life threatening circumstances. Don't rely on the government to protect you, or tell you when its time to leave-you should be ready to take matters into your own hands. In the end, you are responsible for yourself, and the goverment be darned. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to change what happened, but in the end....its all on you.

-Tutt

[Jaguarundi]

That is very wrong !

[CJM]

CowoyTutt - the people of Greensburg were forced to leave AFTER the tornado, not before. They had already gone through the dangerous part, then were prevented from staying and protecting their property from looting that was obviously done by the government "lawkeepers" there to "help" them.

[sore shoulder]

Tutt, your right about the cockroaches, except it was the feds in this case, as in NOLA. They broke into secure houses and safes and stole private property that was never returned. People were forced at gunpoint to leave undamaged homes by feds when no martial law had been declared. Does this not concern you, or are you so used to govt rule down there in CA?

[Modoc ED]

Tutt, your right about the cockroaches, except it was the feds in this case, as in NOLA. They broke into secure houses and safes and stole private property that was never returned. People were forced at gunpoint to leave undamaged homes by feds when no martial law had been declared. Does this not concern you, or are you so used to govt rule down there in CA?

Another case of our finest Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) at work.

I just don't understand why these LEOs don't quit their jobs rather than carry out illegal confiscations, etc..

[CowboyTutt]

CowoyTutt - the people of Greensburg were forced to leave AFTER the tornado, not before. They had already gone through the dangerous part, then were prevented from staying and protecting their property from looting that was obviously done by the government "lawkeepers" there to "help" them.

I went back and read the article, and your right. Some of the sentences were sort of vague in the first few paragraphs. Why would you force someone to evacuate AFTER its over? Makes no sense to me at all.

I hope someone at the NRA can file suit against this. I don't understand why our LEO's don't quit either.
-Tutt

[Jayhawker]

LEO or just another government employee? I guess the difference is in their actions.

[brucew44guns]

LEO's build up 4 weeks of paid vacation eventually, they have good medical plans, drive company cars, have sick leave, pensions, and good pay. If they are told to tear down the door of your locked and safe house and ransack it, they will do that, ---long before they just walk off the job and quit. These men arn't holy and righteous, they follow their orders. And maybe they need these small city disasters to practice what they feel they will do on a large scale when a monster city goes down to a disaster, they got a lot of practice in New Orleans.

[donw]

what do you suppose it will be like if a gun grab goes nationwide? obama and ted kennedy would have no problem in seizing, especially, handguns.

from the way legislation is going now (and PROPOSED laws) we'll be lucky if this is not a police state within the next 4 years.

from what i see and read, most LEO are not much more than muscle. not much in the thought department..."it's the law and i'm paid to enforce it". many of them seem to have no concept of right and wrong, only legal or illegal.

MHO is we've reached a time in our history where legislators/LEO are now putting themselves above reproach. if you think that's bunk, think about it; if a cop is slain, a nationwide manhunt is launched...an average "joe six-pak" is slain; "we'll see if we can find who did it..." LEO are exempted from nearly every firearms law. LEO are alowed to use a "ruse" in order to get information from you, you lie to them..."obstruction of justice" or "perjury". a supreme court ruling: "police are under no legal duty to respond to an indivdual. police are for the protection of the masses"

in reference to what modoc ed said...LEO have the attitude of "we'll try it, if we get away with it, we're home free"

[jengel]

I am very busy right now but I will post a detailed response to the article after a while. I will say that it is BS. I was there for 8 days during May 8 through May 16 as the Logistics Section Chief and I know what happened. I will write up my response and post later.

[JerryB]

jengel, I have been waiting for you to see this story and what you saw while you were there. How is the shop doing now?

[jnyork]

jdad, I sent you a PM. Jerry

[Hobie]

Jdad, I drove through the remains of Greensburg in the summer of '07 on my way to Wichita, KS. to visit my Grandmother. The amount of devastation I saw was truly jaw-dropping amazing. I hate to give a disenting opinion, but only a irrational person would stay knowing a potential F5 tornado was on its way. You pack up your stuff, and get out of town. I don't think its right what happened regarding people's firearms, but it is not unusual for the cockroaches of society to come out and take advantage during times of trouble when they know they can get away with it. I have some nice things in my small apartment, but the only things of true irraplacable value are my firearms, most of which are customized. The rest I can probably replace. I would throw them in the car and go. Whether or not martial law is declared or not, or people were forced out of their homes, or not, is sort of immaterial to me under those life threatening circumstances. Don't rely on the government to protect you, or tell you when its time to leave-you should be ready to take matters into your own hands. In the end, you are responsible for yourself, and the goverment be darned. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to change what happened, but in the end....its all on you.

-Tutt

I beleive the evacuation was POST tornado...

[jengel]

The text is copied below and my opinions are in bold.


GREENSBURG GUN CONFISCATIONS
By Patricia A. Stoneking

I would like to start this report by noting that I have personally spoke with several sources who were directly involved in the incidents that I am about to report that took place in Greensburg, KS in the aftermath of the horrible CAT 5 tornado that ravaged and destroyed that town. I will not be divulging their names in this article as they have requested I not do so.

The first thing I would like for everyone to acknowledge is that the residents of Greensburg were forced to evacuate and that, in and of itself, was an illegal action as martial law had not been declared. It is true about the evacuation, the people were evacuated after the tornado. It was because there were so many life and safety hazards such as leaking natural gas, propane, gasoline, downed power lines and other nasty things like leaking anhydrous ammonia. I was not illegal to evacuate the town.

There were many people who wanted to stay and they were threatened with arrest and forcible removal if they did not leave as ordered. Wrong, they were asked to leave and they all did on their own accord.

The tornado happened at 9:46pm on Friday evening, May 4, 2007 and they were forced to leave within a couple hours of it, being given no time to collect themselves or assess the damages or even try to pick up anything such as guns and valuables. They were asked to evacuate several hours after the tornado hit. There was property scattered over 2 miles away from where the town was. The devestation was total and it would have been impossible to collect your things.

Ed Klummp, Police Chiefs Association, testified at the House committee hearing with a position opposing The Emergency Powers Act and said the evacuations were so they could search for bodies and shut off gas and power and that the evacuation was for the safety of the residents. I have been told by a reliable source that the electricity was shut off prior to the tornado striking and the gas was shut off within a few hours after.NO IT WAS NOT. The tornado sirens sounded for 20 minutes before the tornado hit. There was a dispatcher at her post in town when the tornado hit. She knew that the tornado would hit her office and she kept dispatching officers until the debris took out her windows and the power went out.

It would seem that the evacuation was not necessary in light of that information. Perhaps the position should have been that those who want to leave be provided a way to do so and those who wish to stay be allowed to stay. Whatever, you’re entitled to your own opinion.

This town was locked down tight for several days and no one was allowed in or out. Wrong, the town was locked down for a few days and then the people that actually lived there were allowed back in town from 8am to 6pm. Law Enforcement was running over 50 officers during the day and just under 50 at night. They were working 12 hour shifts.

The only people in that town during this time were Sheriffs Officers, Kansas Highway Patrol Officers, ATF, FEMA, National Guard, Police Officers from surrounding areas and some volunteers from Ft. Riley, generally speaking, government officials. Yep, that is right. Although, I never saw an ATF Agent on site. There were other agencies present like EPA and some other alphabet soup agencies, just not ATF.

Authorities claim no one else was there or could have gotten in or out. Interestingly enough, I have been told repeatedly by all sources that the media was allowed to roam freely without escorts through Greensburg. WRONG. The media was allowed into town but they were to remain along a 3 block area of Main Street and they were escorted around. There were regular media meetings throughout the incident. It was critical that the media was allowed in because we would have had thousands more people show up uninvited in the event of a media blackout. The media really helped in this one.

Shall we ask why residents were not allowed to stay on their own property but media was allowed unfettered access? Already addressed.

Many guns and other valuables such as jewelry have gone permanently missing and have never been recovered. HELLO, it was an EF 5 tornado.

There were some houses that were not destroyed and were in tact and habitable. Every house was damaged in town. There were several on the east side of town that were habitable, even though slightly damaged.

Those folks did not want to leave but were forced to do so. When they returned they found their houses had been broken in to and all of their guns missing. One gentleman reports that when he went to claim his guns, taken from his secure home, they were returned to him in damaged condition. They were not damaged by the tornado. They were locked up in his home and illegally confiscated. So how do we suppose that damage occurred? I have heard the same thing, that homes were entered and gun seized. From talking to our undersheriff that arrived on site the next day as the Communications Unit Leader, he said that this did not happen.

Guns and ammunition that were collected were taken to a trailer and an ATF agent manned the trailer. There were no ATF agents there, they were guarded by officers that were sent to town to help in whatever way that they could. I saw PD officers, Sheriff’s deputies and Highway Patrol officers guarding the trailer.

When people first came to collect their guns they were asked for proof of ownership such as receipts and serial number lists and they had to fill out a 4473 and get a NICS approval before they could claim their guns. At first, they were asked for serial numbers or proof of purchase. I do not think that they had to do the 4473 forms because I saw several people collect their firearms just by describing their firearms to the officers. No NICS checks were done.

No one had paperwork, receipts, or lists of serial numbers because it had all blown away. Later into the process they quit demanding these items and asked only for a list with make, model and description of the firearm. In one case, in the collection trailer, a gun case was claimed by one man who had a very nice trap shotgun in it and when he opened the undamaged and closed case, he found not his nice BT99 but another damaged gun that did not belong to him. That $1500.00 BT99 has never turned up. One comment made by all sources is that many “niceâ€

[jengel]

jengel, I have been waiting for you to see this story and what you saw while you were there. How is the shop doing now?

I had to go back to the other office to check my email for word and I happened to catch the Greensburg name and it peaked my interest. I copied and pasted the text to a WORD document and waited until later to comment.

The shop is coming along nicely. We finally got our FFL and a really nice building. We are doing some remodeling now. Yesterday, we got 50 guns in and we are waiting on about 90 more. I think that within the next couple of weeks, we should have most everything, including 13 gun safes, a Bombardier camouflage ATV and other stuff. Tom Knapp will be in town to perform an exhibition shoot on May 23, 24. I am trying to get our website lady to update the site with new information. The phone number needs changed along with some other stuff. I did have her put a link on for this forum. We should be open on May 1 for business.

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks Jengel. There was just a bit much hyperbole for me in the various posts around the net for me to take it at face value too...

And as God & y'all know, I'm not one to cut the BATFE or ANY anti-gun org ANY slack... but this one just didn't ring true from the get go.

[sore shoulder]

One family, whose house was not damaged, reported that officers were going to remove them at gun point when they refused to leave their property and a gun fight was only averted when a KBI agent stepped in front of the other officers and pleaded with them to consider what they were doing. Those residents had taken up their shotguns and were not going to leave. We can only say thank heavens for that KBI officer who had the sense to realize what pressing these people at gun point would mean. BULL CRUD. That never happened.

I'm just curious how you know this never happened. I ask this because your logistics duties sound like a full time job that would not have given you very much time in the field to supervise evac teams that were not under your direction.

[jengel]

One family, whose house was not damaged, reported that officers were going to remove them at gun point when they refused to leave their property and a gun fight was only averted when a KBI agent stepped in front of the other officers and pleaded with them to consider what they were doing. Those residents had taken up their shotguns and were not going to leave. We can only say thank heavens for that KBI officer who had the sense to realize what pressing these people at gun point would mean. BULL CRUD. That never happened.

I'm just curious how you know this never happened. I ask this because your logistics duties sound like a full time job that would not have given you very much time in the field to supervise evac teams that were not under your direction.

I was involved in two daily briefings as well as talking to the Law Enforcement Unit Leaders about the problems. The only problems that we had were soldiers from Fort Riley came down and were looting the Dillons Grocery store. Troopers arrested them and they were put in jail in a neighboring town. As far as removing people at gun point, I never heard of this and I was briefed in detail by people that were there during the first two days. You could be right, it might have happened and it could have been covered up by LE. I don't believe that was the case.

[Modoc ED]

jengel -

The problem now as I see it is that just as the people who related the events of what happened before/during/after the tornado about forced evacuations at gun point and gun confiscations, may have been over-the-top in their description of events you perhaps are being over-the-top in your denial of their related events that took place before/during/after the tornado.

You yourself just said in response to "sore shoulder", "You could be right, it might have happened and it could have been covered up by LE. I don't believe that was the case." That is your opinion but the bottom line is that you don't know about every single event that happened.

I believe there is a lot of truth in what some people of the town related and I believe there is a lot of truth in what you have related. That is why I think some type of formal investigation would be in order to get at as much of the truth as possible.

[Old Ironsights]

On the flip side:

Who's to say it wasn't non-government Vultures who came in to take advantage?

Really, how hard is it to get NinjaGear and pretend to be Fed LEO in a disaster situation?

Sounds like a dandy way to aquire a bunch of guns to sell on the black market...

[Griff]

Whether or not the "gun-point" incident happened, from my own experience in TX after a F-4 hit Lancaster, the amount of devastation and general confusion is very likely to lead to some mis-information. Our SO was assigned to assist the city PD in patrolling the streets and keep looters and others (ANY non-residents) out of the stuck areas. The problem in Lancaster was that the tornado touched down, took out a few blocks, crawled back into the sky, then touched down again several blocks away. It did that twice as I recall.

We were asked to help the 2nd day after the tornado hit, most of evacuations had already been done; were there still problems? Yes. As folks want to get to their place, salvage what can be salvaged, assess damage, and start rebuilding right away if possible. Our problem, and one that frustrated some homeowners was that they were caught in the middle between total destruction, with relatively light to no damage to their homes. However, due to downed electric lines, etc., evacuations were done. In cases where folks had backup generators, etc., they were allowed back in at the earliest time possible, as they also provided additional security to the areas.

Were there some highly inflamatory reports done? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the 5th column was at work to help "get the news out", and sometimes their intent conflicts with the safety of the public and those in most need of help. Frankly, Dan Rather is not alone in his comtempt of authority and willingness to lie in order to further his own goals and agendas.

A certain contempt, or maybe cynical approach is a better phrasing, to authority is not without its merits. BUT, to believe, wholly, with all discredit going to the authorities, is also wrong, and unjustly called for. Might I ask, where are other confirming reports? Blindly believing everything you read in a newspaper or on-line report is as naive as blindly accepting the "official" report.

Lastly, declaration of Marshal Law is an extreme measure, one that will be reviewed ad finitum long after the person making such a call is dead and gone. None of the civil or martial authorities I've ever had the pleasure of working under has ever voiced any desire to take that step; quite the opposite in fact. Very akin to "unloosing the Dogs of War." And, declaring marshal law is not a necessary step when other methods of protecting the public are just as effective and NOT ILLEGAL. Part of the "protect the public" includes those who've just found themselves victims of a natural disaster, and the rest of the public who may find themselves preyed upon by the unscruplous and criminally bent among those victims as well as the population at large.

There is some truth to the axim that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Quite unpopular among huge segments of the population, regardless of their political leanings, but we elect and appoint folks to positions where they are required to make these decisions in moments of high stress, not to mention personal clamities, sometimes with little or no training.

[sore shoulder]

There is some truth to the axim that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." .

As I recall Karl Marx, among other of his contemporaries, was a big beleiver in that one. Our Founding Fathers were not, for good reason.

[Old Ironsights]

...There is some truth to the axim that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." ....

Yep. Very unpopular, as it is the antithesis of both the Constitution and Human Rights/Civil Rights in general.

[Griff]

Let's see, just think for a minute... according to more learned historians than I, less than 30% of the population of the colonies were in favor of the Revolution, on July 2nd, 1776. Yet it went forward. Don't lay the "founding fathers" stuff on me, they represented the few. Does the good of the few outweigh the good of the many. NO, that's what we have had for far longer than recorded history.

And, when I say the good of the many outweigh the good of the few, I mean that strictly from a practical standpoint. Let's just say that 25% of the homes that were destroyed had guns of all kinds in them. Do you just leave them lying around until the right survivor comes along and FINDS them? NO, some responsible party must take it upon themselves to recover those so they don't fall in the hands of criminals and create a worse problem. For, believe me, the absolute worst in people comes out at times like this. Yes, sometimes in the form of authority and all well-meaning intent. But, I have a resounding belief that honest men will still outnumber the other stripe, but for a few good men to stand by and do NOTHING is far worse than securing such a scene and containing any potentional problems.

Much of America gets by with letting others do their thinking for them, regurgitating the axioms and expletives that some folks spout thinking they are "better" equipped to do said thinking. And maybe they are, but... for the wrong ideals. It is incumbent on each citizen in the country to safeguard the rights of all the people, not just those he likes or feels will serve him in some manner at a future time.

Maybe I can get the quote right, "absolute rule by the many is just as much folly as the absolute rule by the one.

Folks, review the French Revolution, there was a good idea gone bad, simply because anarchy is not a healthy situation. What you are professing is anarchy. Yielding to some authority for the good of community and the total of population is not an evil, it is sometimes the necessary expident to accomplish a goal.

Your arguments are like one defending his right to freedom of speech, yet his speech consisted of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater. There are and should be limits placed on individuals, as well as Government... Nay, many more on the government, however, in times of exigent circumstances, cool heads with the thought of the protection of life AND property must be allowed to overcome a short-term burden.

No, with that, I'm not advocating the confiscation of weapons in the possession of their rightful owner, even if they have no secure place to store them; i.e. their abode is destroyed as evidenced by the pics jengel showed. However, when the resident is not present, whether by forced evacuation or voluntarily leaving leaving such as unsecured property is irresponsible. i.e. You were visiting relatives in the nearby town and came home to find your house destroyed and property scattered over miles of the landscape. Personally, I would hope that any weapons of mine that were located were secured, regardless of how difficult it might be for me to retrieve them at a later date. Better that, than shuffled off to East LA (sorry CA guys), and used later in a drive-by.

If the story were true, and secure residences were broken into and "guns stolen", yes, I find unconscionable and if proven, perpetrators should spend time with others of their ilk, in jail. Perhaps I hold my fellow man in too low esteem, but, I find it far more likely that "Joe Blow" sees an excellent opportunity to initialize a fraudulent insurance claim on how his "prized hunting rifle, a Lazeroni, worth $10,000" was looted by police. Having gone that far, screamin' abuse by the "powers that be" to the 5th column is sure to get something done.

Now, do we, as a result of our founding fathers have the best form of Government on the planet? Yes. Were the founding fathers always in agreement on just what form and shape that government was to take? NO, a resounding, NO! Such beneficial rules, regulations and laws as we have are the result of 2+ centuries of modification, enhancement and refinement of the basic tenets of our Government. And yes, there have been and will continue to be modification, enhancement and refinement of the above that will NOT be beneficial to the populace.

I believe that it was said by one of the founding fathers that unwise persons choosing leaders will result in unwise leadership.

Basic fact of life, you can't please all the people all the time, so...

Lastly it was only ONE founding father (that I know of) that truly believed in the need for a continuing rebuke of authority. He even served as President for two terms, yet... in looking at his personal life, he would be my last choice to emulate and hold up as and example of a true patriot.

Did our founding fathers make mistakes in their guiding hand at the tiller of government? If you think they didn't you'd better go back and look at your US History again... with a very critical eye.

No gentlemen, when there ARE circumstances in which there exists a need to handle forseeable and clear dangers, elected and appointed authority will, more often than not, err of the side of caution to handle a given situation, and most of the time it will be unpopular and will cause unrest and discontent, either at the time, or in a later time. This doesn't make them WRONG.

Regarding The Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I believe that just the opposite is shown, for they are examples of how the good of the community is far more important than the good of the one. We are a nation of individuals, therefore the many, and our rights are more important than the one, the Government. The right to peace and the pursuit of happiness for all of us is more important than the right of any individual. That involves trampling that self same right of the one.

Frankly, I'm sure many reasonable men could say, "it would be best for me to be King, than to live under the hypocrasy of the "dear, learned, fellows that represent the many". In fact, it may even be good for the many... but it would not be good for the ALL. It is an acknowledged fact that a benelovent Monarchy can be the best of Governments. However, it is the continued benelovency that is in question. That we have had 212 years of peaceful exchange of administration and policy is more testament that the good of the many outweigh the good of the few.

The Colonies did NOT want the Revolution, the 1st and 2nd Continental Congresses were for the explicit purpose as to seek redress from the Crown for grievances. Only the Crown's refusal to address, even partially refusing to acknowledge the existance of grievances led to the Revolution.

Blindly following any dogma will get you nowhere. Any political form of government is an exercise in deprivation. Deprivation of the self for the body politic. Those that most stridently scream about the good of the many overweighs the good of the individual as a continued state of affairs are mentally ill. As I believe that Karl Marx, Lenin and others led themselves into. For governmental systems with that end in mind, without the necessary checks and balances to hinder the rise of an individual above the importance of the populace will in their desire force such non-human ideals in place are doomed to failure and will in fact give rise to the Stalin's, Napoleon's and Ceseares of our history. Politics is the unsavory collusion of folks that desire to exert control over others.

However, in matters of exigent circumstances, some such control is necessary for continued existence of the community. It is the test of our government and our resolve as members of our society to ensure that such circumstances exist for only the duration of the immediate threat to life and property. That cannot be done by committee, it sometimes takes an individual to step forward, make an unpopular decision, that in fact, DOES saves lives.

Let us not forget that our Constitution and government were created by criminals. Many of whom had a death sentence over their head. Some of whom made decisions for the whole without the blessing of the body.

Sorry for the rambling post and scattered thoughts, but... that's the veiw from my saddle.

[Old Ironsights]

I think the confusion is definitional.

All Rights are Individual. There are no "Collective" Rights.

The "Rights of the Many" are, in fact, the aggergate Rights of the Individual.

Maybe it's a subtle distinction, but it is an important one.

It is the failure to recognise that distinction that leads to "laws" that ban gun possesion in general because of the actions of individuals.

[Griff]

Ah, yes. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

And here's the conundrum most folks grapple with, the elected persons I, err, we put in their positions and their appointees don't WANT me, as one of "the People", to show up, armed and prepared to do my duty as a member of a "well-regulated militia" to provide to the security "of a free State". And for very good reason, for we, as "John Q. Public", are not trained to deal with such events. In addition, that's NOT the intent of Artiicle II of the Bill of Rights. That is what "posse comitatus" is for.

It is my opinion that Article II of the Bill of Rights was intended to ensure the capacity existed to throw off the bonds of a foriegn power or a government by men so corrupt they would violaate the spirit of the Declaration of Independence.

For easy reference read Wikipedia's discussion of the Bill of rights. Also carefully study the difference between the "Federalist" and "Republican" stances on the powers to be granted federal government.

Check out how the ratifications went, draw your own conclusions:
Ratification dates
New Jersey, November 20, 1789; rejected article II
Maryland, December 19, 1789; approved all
North Carolina, December 22, 1789; approved all
South Carolina, January 19, 1790; approved all
New Hampshire, January 25, 1790; rejected article II
Delaware, January 28, 1790; rejected article I
New York, February 27, 1790; rejected article II
Pennsylvania, March 10, 1790; rejected article II
Rhode Island, June 7, 1790; rejected article II
Vermont, November 3, 1791; approved all
Virginia, December 15, 1791; approved all

Gentlemen, this has been an excellent conversation and in view of Heller vs. DC, pertinent. My opinions and views might be all wet, but hey! that's beauty of the document in its entirety, under Article I, I have the freedom to express them.

[rjohns94]

Griff,

You do pretty well typing while driving!!!