POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

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Old Ironsights
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POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Old Ironsights »

Will Churches be the Next Gun-Free Zones?
by Doug Newman
dougnewman@juno.com

Special to The Libertarian Enterprise

A chilling article appeared in Friday's Denver Rocky Mountain News. The headline read "More Churchgoers Carrying Firearms." The opening paragraph read:

"Ever since a gunman went on a deadly shooting rampage at a missionary training center in Arvada and a Colorado Springs megachurch, law enforcement and security officials are encountering what they believe is a growing dilemma—people packing firearms when they go to worship."

There is no "dilemma" at all for those who can read and think.

The church was New Life Church, about an hour's drive south of where I live. The gunman was Matthew Murray, who killed two people and wounded three others last December 9. Murray was then shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, an armed security guard. Shortly thereafter, Murray fatally shot himself.

I don't get it. Where is this dilemma? Jeanne Assam's cool head and steady finger prevented God knows how much more death and carnage. The tone of the article strongly implies that armed churchgoers are a growing security threat. I am going to quote some passages and interject my own commentary.

"John Casey, the former security director at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where Matthew Murray shot and killed twin sisters in December, said that after the gunfire ended several congregants raced to their vehicles to retrieve firearms.

"'It looked like an NRA convention," said Casey, who is president of Paragon Training Group Inc., which consults with churches, Christian schools and daycare centers on security."


Why bother having a group to "consult" on "security"? Why not consult with Jesus Christ?

"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils." —Luke 11:21-22

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." —Luke 22:36


These two passages help form the biblical basis of the Second Amendment. (1) The "well-regulated militia" of which it speaks consists of all able-bodied people. This is necessary for the security of not just any old state, but a FREE STATE. Hence, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Period.

This idea that depriving people of certain tools will prevent evil has no basis in Scripture. It is a false promise. The 20,000 gun laws—i.e. violations of the Second Amendment—on the books in America are based on this false promise.

The Bible simply tells us that Cain killed Abel, but not how he did it. Why? Because it doesn't matter what tool he might have used. It was Cain who offed his brother, not some tool.

Christians need to know this. However, far too many don't. They are "destroyed for lack of knowledge"—Hosea 4:6. And many more will be destroyed if we don't turn things around. When was the last time you heard a sermon on any of this?

The article also states:

"Complicating the issue is the fact that many pastoral staffs don't know who among their flock is carrying a concealed weapon, security and law enforcement officials said Thursday during an informational meeting at the Heritage Christian Center in Arapahoe County. (2) The meeting is a prelude to a three-day conference in November hosted by the National Association of Church and School Security."

Again, why do Christians need a "national association" to deal with such issues? The Bible tells us what to do.

"Casey said it was up to each pastor to adopt a policy on whether church members should be permitted to carry firearms onto church grounds."

If pastors want to declare their churches gun-free zones, thus letting their flocks be easy pickings for criminals that is their choice. I would just advise you to leave any such church.

Don't think that all evangelical Christians are Second Amendment enthusiasts. I have gotten into too many discussions and debates with too many of them over the years. They say they support the Second Amendment, except in schools, except on airplanes, except, except, except...

"(Casey) suggested that all churches need to somehow find out who among their congregations is bringing a gun to their houses of worship."

My guess is that 100 years ago, before we started down this road, bringing a gun to church was far more commonplace than it is now. And nobody shot up any churches. We were an armed society and, hence, a more polite society. Moreover, preachers devoted far less energy to worldly political and social entanglements and had no inhibitions about preaching against sin. Perhaps the reason that you almost never hear, even nowadays, about a church shooting is that churches are not yet gun-free zones? God tells us to learn from history as it does repeat itself—Ecclesiastes 1:9. But we don't learn.

We took guns out of schools and we got Columbine and numerous other shootings. We took guns off college campuses and we got Virginia Tech. In neither case could any students, staff or faculty shoot back.

We took guns out of shopping malls and we got the Salt Lake City mall shooting. It is instructive that, in this case, further bloodshed was prevented only by an off-duty policeman who shot the killer dead. The mall shoppers were disarmed.

Even when I believed the official 9/11 story, I was very adamant that terrorists with box cutters would have been no match for passengers and/or pilots with, say, .357s. (3)

Imagine a terrorist with a box cutter on 9/11 proclaiming, "My name is Ahmed. I hate you, your freedom and your democracy and I am going to kill you."

Now imagine a passenger on that tragic morning whipping out a .357 and saying, as they might in my home state of New Jersey, "Yo, Ahmed. My name is Frankie. And don't call me Francis. Ya want yer 70 virgins? I got yer 70 virgins right here!"

Any fool knows that you don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Any fool also knows that when you disarm innocent people, bad things happen. Proverbs 25:26 teaches the righteous not to give way to the wicked. This is exactly what happens when you disarm innocent people.

The worst genocides in history have taken place when citizens have been disarmed and thereby rendered defenseless.

So what will come out of this November church "security" conference? Will we start to see a push for "gun-free church" legislation? Any church conforming to such a law would be violating the First Commandment. You know, the part about "no other gods before me"—Exodus 20:3.

In the blog following the online version of this article, someone wrote the following:

"Maybe God is using this obvious assault on the visible forms of so-called contemporary Christianity to separate the wheat from the chaff. Maybe the facade of Christian religion in America is about to be torn down or perhaps re-designed. The Devil certainly has his wicked hand in all this, but I think it's time for professing believers in Christ to think deeply about all this beyond just the 'Devil's attack' mentality. What is God saying to his true church? Maybe it's what the Bible has said all along: 'Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord!'"

For almost a decade, I was very active in a megachurch similar to New Life. I left in 2005 after an extremely nasty, ugly episode. While the devil most clearly had his hand in it, a friend gave me a different perspective. She said that this episode might have been God's way of clearing His people out of there. I believe she was right.

Our culture is out of control not because of a lack of laws and policies. But rather, because churches are so obsessed with being like the world and bowing down to the kingdoms of the world that they have forgotten about the Kingdom of God.

Notes

(1) What Does the Bible Say about Gun Control? by Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America.

(2) Heritage is another megachurch about an eight-minute drive from my house.

(3) The best sources for questioning the official story on 9/11 are these three videos.

Additional Notes

SC in Wyoming sent me the following.

I regularly carry my pistol into church services. My pastor knows and has no issue with it. It is kept under my shirt and out of the way.

You might have gotten a kick out of yesterday. I preach once and awhile as a fill-in for some of the local pastors when they are off. I could not wear my holster in the normal way, because I dress up a bit when I am at the pulpit. So I did the next best thing, I just put it in my pocket. Worked out just fine.
—GR in California

You raise an obvious albeit very easily overlooked point, one which I long surely missed—by what method did Cain slay Abel?

As you note, the tool is irrelevant, yet anti-gunners always harp about the tool and gloss over the criminal behavior. Yes, I surely will link to your article in my upcoming Etherzone piece on firearms. This whole 'gun free zone' gag is just another troubling, ominous relic from the 90s, designed to make people feel good all the while putting them at grave risk.
—PZ in Florida

http://www.geocities.com/fountoftruth/willchur.html

If you would like to post this, please e-mail meand include this URL. Posted at Freedom4um, Novakeo, Covenant News, Rational Review, Cutim, Police State USA and The Price of Liberty.
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Charles
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Charles »

It never ceases to amaze me how folks take scripture out of context and thereby make it say something entirely different from the orignal meaning.

In Luke 11:14-24 we find Jesus casting out a deamon. Some of the folks said that Jesus had done that by the power of Satan. Jesus responded, first with the well known statment about a house/kingdom divided against itself could not stand. The idea being that the folks who said this was done by Satan's power were foolishing because Satan would not be working against himself. What they said, was not only foolish but illogical. He points out other foolish parts of their accusation and then announces that he does this by the power of God. The power of God is so much stronger than the power of Satan and He uses that quoted verse to illustrate the stronger power of God vs. the weak power of Satan.

To try and make this an indorsement of weapons by Jesus, does violence to His meaning.

The events in Luke 22 take place at the last supper and following in the garden on the Mt. of Olives. At the last supper Jesus the disciples were discussing among themselves which one of them was greater. Jesus broke up this self love fest and fantasy and told them that they have survived trials with him and thould would have a place in His Kingdom.

He went on to tell Peter how Satan was hot on his case, but He had prayed for Peter than he wold not fail, but turn AGAIN and strengthen his fellow disciples. Peter responded that he would never fail and was ready to go with Jesus to prison or death. Jesus told him that before this very night was over he would deny Him three times.

Jesus them pointed out that in prior times he had sent them out without any resources, but this time they should take all the resources they had including a sword, and if they didn't have a sword they should sell their overcoat and buy one. He said what was to come was to fulfill the prophecy that He would be treated by the authorities as a common criminal.

The disciples did a quick check and said they had two swords and he said that was enough.

A short time later in the Garden when the Temple Police came to arrest him one of his disciples drew on of the swords and cut off the ear of the High Priest' slave. Jesus said "No more of this" and replaced and healed the ear.

Summary... To try and construct a "theology of Jesus and weapons" by taking these two verses out of context is a gross misunderstanding and misuse of the Bible.

That having been said, I see no conflict between the Christian faith and being armed for the purpose of self defense. I have a Texas Concealed Handgun license, and carry frequently.
.
Texas law does say that Churches are one of the places you CANNOT carry even with a CHL. To do so requires the specific permission of the managment which in this case would be the Pastor.

While a Pastor, I have had one person request such permission, which I freely granted. I did put it into writing to make certain he would be protected if I was unavailable.

All of my life I have heard folks who had no use for the Bible say that folks could twist it to make it say anything. That is not true, when the Bible is studied and each verse is placed in it's proper context. However, when folks do what was done in the original post and take the verse out of context they prove the anti-Bible folks to be correct.
donw
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by donw »

among other reasons our culture is 'out of control' is:

1. we are TRAINED to be victims from the moment we start to walk! "johnnie, don't fight back or defend yourself...call an adult/cop/teacher". there are laws in the penal code that do allow for self defense, too, but it's usually discouraged; especially in academia.

2. most LEO/administrations: "don't take the law in you own hands"...when seconds count, the police are minutes away...more fact than fiction. been there, done that...it took the police 42 minutes to respond to my call a neighbor was pounding the beejeebers out of his wife right in front of my house. there is a police substation within one mile of there. if it were not for another neighbor subduing the attacker while i was on the phone with 911, he probably would have killed her. (this took place in san diego, ca.)

3. most LEO/administrations do not advocate we use firearms in self defense or defense of others and under most circumstances do not condone use of firearms as a deterrent to the 'bad guys'. if you have a firearm displayed when LEO shows up on the scene, you'd better be prepared to be taken down and handcuffed and your firearm confiscated, even if you're the "good guy". most LEO/administrations are NOT open to issuing CCW's simply because you feel a need for one. (at least in the republik of kaliphornia.) if you haven't a CCW then more than likely you'll be charged with something like "brandishing a firearm in public" even if the firearm was not loaded, discharged or concealed.

4. the sheer magnitude and complexity of our legal system is a deterrence at having someone get involved, so they ignore it. they simply do not wish to become involved (not to mention the expense involved if one does get involved.)

5. MOST everyday, "joe sixpack" type persons have little to no knowledge of firearms and when and how to PROPERLY use them.

6. society, as a whole, have been told, educated, trained by the media that firearms are "BAD, only police and military should be allowed to have them..." i submit to you...look at the recent example of the tijuana, mexico, police being disarmed by the federal troops of mexico in order to restore order. the police then refused to patrol. the bad guys were armed! i don't blame them in ways...why face someone with a full auto AK with nothing but a bullet proof vest and a badge?

i could go on...
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by ole pizen slinger »

For those interested in the question, "How did Cain kill Abel?" The Bible gives subtle answers. If you will turn back to the book of Genesis you will read where God gave Adam and Eve "coats" of skins after they had sinned. These skins showed that God demanded the life of the innocent in payment for the sins committed. In other words, God demanded a blood sacrifice to atone for man's wickedness. There are also intimations in the book of Genesis that God dwelt in a specific place with regard to the garden of Eden. He dwelt near the East gate. I am assuming that an altar was erected for the purpose of sacrifice at that place. Further reading in Genesis reveals that Cain and Abel came to sacrifice "at the appointed time". Maybe the first idea of a Sabbath. Adam and Eve had evidently taught both their sons that God demanded an innocent blood sacrifice as atonement for sin. One brought the fruit of his own labors and it was rejected. The other brought the demanded blood sacrifice and was accepted. This brings us to the answer to the question, "How did Cain kill Abel?" When God provided the animal skins to Adam and Eve, he also taught them how to kill those animals so the sacrifices could be perpetuated. Adam and Eve taught Cain and Abel how to kill in order for them to continue these same sacrifices. In the New Testament, a verse reads in talking about Cain and Abel, "wherefore slew he him". The Greek word translated "slew" in this verse refers to the manner in which the priests killed the animals used for the Old Testament sacrifices. These sacrifices were slain by "cutting their throats". Cain killed Abel by "cutting his throat". Genesis backs up this idea in telling us that Abel's blood witnesses from the ground. A further idea is the motive Cain used for his ungodly act. Cain did not kill Abel because God rejected his sacrifice. Cain killed Abel because Cain was the firstborn and would lose the rights of the firstborn because he failed to follow God's method of salvation. Cain killed Abel because the older would not submit to being the servant of the younger. What a tradegy. The first human being fell into sin--the first family fell into sin--the whole human race fell into sin. What a commentary on human existence. Man would teach that man is "evolving" into a higher being. He started at the bottom of the ladder and is slowly getting better. God teaches that man started at the top of the ladder and fell all the way to the bottom. I hope you find this worthy of your reading.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by AJMD429 »

I'm just a dumb doctor (paraphrasing Ted Nugent's "I'm Just a dumb guitar player") but I see it like this:

God gave me a body, and a mind with which to choose right/wrong, and to use to take care of my body.

God gives us the ability to form a family, again using our body and mind to take care of them.

God gives us the ability to form a community, as an extention of the family.

If using a .45 ACP to protect oneself is blashpemy because it means you don't trust God to protect you, then you shouldn't wear seat belts, use safety goggles, or use a thimble when sewing!

I figure God gave me the will, and John Browning the inventor's insight, to deal with the 'easy' stuff - I'll let God handle the tornados, earthquakes, etc.

If anything, my fellow church members constitute an extended 'family' which merits protection if the need arises, even perhaps moreso than the local community at large.

Some churches have an official "anti-gun" stance, and that seems about as "enlightened" as the Kool-Aid suicide cults; I don't go in those kinds of places, church or not.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
rjohns94
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by rjohns94 »

hmm, I carry concealed in my church all the time. I see no conflict.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by JerryB »

Arkansas for some reason wrote in the CCW law book that among other places a church is a no carry zone too.Shootings do occur there as well as anywhere else. I talked to my pastor and he said that he had no problem and thanked me. He also said for me not to move from where we sit with a good view of the door.
About two months ago our pastor, associate pastor, and a bunch from church, about 25 men and some women took the CCW class down at our church camp.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Bullard4075 »

[quote="Charles"]It never ceases to amaze me how folks take scripture out of context and thereby make it say something entirely different from the orignal meaning.

In Luke 11:14-24 we find Jesus casting out a deamon. Some of the folks said that Jesus had done that by the power of Satan. Jesus responded, first with the well known statment about a house/kingdom divided against itself could not stand. The idea being that the folks who said this was done by Satan's power were foolishing because Satan would not be working against himself. What they said, was not only foolish but illogical. He points out other foolish parts of their accusation and then announces that he does this by the power of God. The power of God is so much stronger than the power of Satan and He uses that quoted verse to illustrate the stronger power of God vs. the weak power of Satan.

To try and make this an indorsement of weapons by Jesus, does violence to His meaning.

Luke 11:21 seems to be the verse under discussion relating Jesus and weapons. Where does demons come into this?
what am I missing here.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by C. Cash »

Men used to tote weapons to Church during our founding all the time, as Indian raids would break out while they were in services. Guns, hawks and accountrements in plain view. I don't see any conflict at all....a man protects his family(brothers and sisters in this case) wherever he has to. It's not farfetched now, based on recent attempted massacres on Churches, that we should be thinking and in many cases, being armed in Church.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Old Ironsights »

C. Cash wrote:Men used to tote weapons to Church during our founding all the time, as Indian raids would break out while they were in services. Guns, hawks and accountrements in plain view. I don't see any conflict at all....a man protects his family(brothers and sisters in this case) wherever he has to. It's not farfetched now, based on recent attempted massacres on Churches, that we should be thinking and in many cases, being armed in Church.
Local Militias often used to muster immediately after services as well... everybody was already in a central location at a convenient time.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by donw »

a place of worship should be, firstly, a place of God, secondly, a place of peace.

unfortunately, it seems otherwise nowdays for some reason.

IMO, we, as a society, and culture, have been 'dumbed down' by decades of being taught to be victims. weren't you told by mom and dad and your teachers "don't take the law into your own hands...call a cop...tell an adult...get a teacher"...etc. that's carried over into the realm of self defense as well. do you know of any schools that 'support' teaching of self defense as a God given right? and i sincerely doubt that there are any schools, anywhere, that would support the right (legally, of course)to carry a firearm for self defense. they're living in the fantasy that the police will protect all. facts tell us differently, don't they?

most LE agencies are not supportive of ANYONE outside of themselves, carrying firearms for SD, even legally with CCW; and probably 95% of legislators in no way, support the legal carrying of SD firearms. (there's that fantasy about the police being able to protect all)

society generally, is paranoid of anyone who wishes to carry, or own for that matter, firearms because schools and other institutes of higher learning, have taught kids that firearms are evil or that the only people who should have firearms are police and military. they seem to overlook/ignore/discount/don't care or are blantly so very anti-firearms that the single most important factor, they DON"T teach, in firearms is about the OPERATOR of the firearm...the average NON-firearm owner is somewhere between "only cops should own guns" and "i don't really care...as long as they don't hurt me".

so...naturally, most people are aghast when they see someone other than a cop or soldier with a firearm. it's a shame when they believe that a regular citzen is a threat if armed.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by RSY »

Charles y mis otros amigos:

Actually, the Texas CHL law had a few elements changed last year!!!

Now, a church must post a 30.06 sign (the official State of Texas "Do Not Carry Here" sign) like most other public places if they do not want a CHL-holder to carry in their buildings. So, progress against knuckleheadedness seems to be underway.

Now, if we can only get the same done for our schools, we might be able to minimize the damage the next time some whacko wants to target our children.

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Old Ironsights »

donw wrote:...most LE agencies are not supportive of ANYONE outside of themselves, carrying firearms for SD, even legally with CCW; and probably 95% of legislators in no way, support the legal carrying of SD firearms. (there's that fantasy about the police being able to protect all)
....
What is true of the Agency (Political) is not generally true of the Officer... (depending on location) and is true only about 50% of the time for the Brass...

The problem is Political. The way to "fix" the problem is also Political: i.e., get rid of "appointed" Chiefs & "Employee" Cops and go back to an ELECTED NON PARTISAN (no party affiliation allowed) Sheriff with At Will Deputies.

If the People elect a Nazi & his pet Stormtroopers, that's who they deserve.

OTOH, if The People elect a Peace Officer who hires/is dedicated to hiring Peace Officers (and disposing of those with a predeliction toward law "enFORCEment" - (most of the individual Cops I've met...)) dedicated to Prosecuting those Guilty ov Violence and leaving the Innocent &/or most of therest alone, well, that's Liberty.

That's the difference between Governance "By the People" and Cobntrol By the Politicians.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by oldmax »

Seems to work in the South, But , hey, what do we know.
We are just a bunch of Red Neck Hill Billys... :mrgreen:

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by ByronG »

Copied from a discussion elsewhere - the views of another pastor.



"I, as a pastor, and as a committed follower of Jesus Christ who laid down his life for me and you and in doing so set us an example of the greatest act of love, do not agree that Kevin nor anyone who might share his point of view are a “best example of someone who has been indoctrinated by society to believe that weapons are evil.” Rather, I would assert that we might be an example, not the best, of someone who believes that there is an alternative way to protect our families than to carry a concealed weapon, and that is to place our total trust and faith in God, and to pray unceasingly for his protection and even mercy on those who might wish to do us harm. In a previous post, Mark quotes Jesus instructing the disciples to buy swords. Yet if we look at the context of that one verse, we read it right after Jesus tells Peter that he will deny him three times, that his faith will be lacking. Then Jesus reminds the disciples that when he already sent them out previously, they lacked absolutely nothing even though they carried nothing, even means to protect themselves. Yet, in these few verses leading up to Jesus’ trial and death, it seems that Jesus might have known that when the going gets tough, self-preservation would be the natural instinct for even those who called themselves his followers, thus his instruction for buying the swords. (Kind of a, “I know you’re going to do it, so go ahead.”

Yet, throughout the gospels, I read many more instances of Jesus calling his disciples and the crowds of onlookers not to self-preservation, but to self-denial, to acts of sacrificial love. Particularly the passage most relevant to me is in the section at the very center of the gospel of Mark, where he says, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.”

Naturally, I want to protect myself and my family. This means, of course, that I will lock all our doors, maybe even install an alarm system, and remain as vigilant as I can, especially in the part of town in which we live. However, just as with a sign on a church door, I don’t even think these things will stop someone who truly might wish to harm me and mine. Would I engage an attacker in hand to hand combat or by some other means in order to disarm them to prevent them from doing harm? Absolutely. But for me, especially as I interpret scripture, the greatest act of love that I can give my family is not to take someone out with a bullet, but for me to take a bullet intended for them. This is something I would do for my congregation as well.

Here’s the point to my post. Jesus gives us a high calling… the path of non-violence, paths that lead to life as God intended it to be, where everyone is sacred, even our enemies. This calling and commandment from Christ to deny ourselves and lay down our lives for others goes against everything in our human nature, and especially against everything we seem to believe as Americans today. I thank God to live in this country where we can have this discussion in an open format such as this, and you have your right to disagree with me and to carry a weapon legally. But instead of society indoctrinating Kevin and myself that weapons are evil, might we allow that society has indoctrinated all of us that protecting ourselves, our loved ones, and our property, above all else, truncates the path of discipleship that leads to life for all? I think this goes beyond carrying a gun. It happens when we place more faith in our bank accounts than we do God. It happens when we place more faith in technology. It happens when we consume more food than we really need. It happens all too often.

Anyone is welcome to worship in the church that I pastor, even if you carry a gun legally. But if there is one place in this whole entire world where you could lay aside your means of self-preservation and completely and totally rely on God’s grace and protection, or to stand for your faith in him to the point of death, shouldn’t it be in a sanctuary?"


My view differs.
Last edited by ByronG on Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Old Ironsights »

ByronG wrote:....My view differs.
Nicht sheiss... :roll:

Mine too. :twisted:

Jesus' views on pacificisim ran only to religious martyerdom... somthing different than the middle-eastern norm even then.

If He was a pacifist He wouldn't have kicked major tuchis in the temple with his "whip of cords"...

Also in the Pirkei Avot (The Ethics of the Fathers) - which, in written text dates nearly to the time of Jesus and Orally even further back - there is a saying: "He who is kind to the cruel is cruel to the kind." This enjoins a mitzvah that is even less open to interpretation than the Levitican "Eye for an Eye" (which was only aplicable in court BTW...)

No Jewish Man - of which Jesus was one - would be culturally able to concience NOT defending onself or others from Predation (vs Persecution). Satan was/is a Predator, and esus regularly cast him out with a spiritual weapon. Likewise, the Frauds in the Temple were Predators - and He cast them out with a Physical Weapon.

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Andrew »

King David shed more blood than any of us ever will and he was the yard stick used for comparing the other kings against becuase of his love for God. Obviously that's a pretty simple way to look at it, but David was a "man's man", a warrior that lead armys of all kinds into battle and even led a band of followers through the wilderness hiding out in caves(sound familiar?). If you have any doubt about his faith in God just read any of his many psalms that he wrote, but, he still carried his sword.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

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My brother has been in the police force for about 2 or 3 years now. He has recently ask me to go on ride alongs with him. I ask him if I could carry since I have a CCW, he had to ask his chief, and the cheif said "no". So I don't go on ride alongs with him. He has yet to be in a shooting and I pray he never is, but I will not go unarmed in a possible hostile situation.


We need to educate our youth/society to not be a victim but someone who will defend theirselves when confonted by evil.

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

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Blackhawk wrote:My brother has been in the police force for about 2 or 3 years now. He has recently ask me to go on ride alongs with him. I ask him if I could carry since I have a CCW, he had to ask his chief, and the cheif said "no". So I don't go on ride alongs with him. He has yet to be in a shooting and I pray he never is, but I will not go unarmed in a possible hostile situation.


We need to educate our youth/society to not be a victim but someone who will defend theirselves when confonted by evil.

Johnny
Have him leave the shotgun unlocked (oops?)...
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

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Old Ironsights wrote:Have him leave the shotgun unlocked (oops?)...
I was under the impression those locks are phony, anyway, and can be released with the mere push of a button. Anyone confirm?

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Charles »

The Chief made a wise decision from a liability stand point. If he allowed a citizen to carry a weapon a "ride-a-long" the department would be liable for anything that person did. Just because a person has a CHL does not mean, they are trained in police, tactics, regulations and restrictions. He made the right call. The risk of some armed citizen bringing a mega lawsuit down on the departmet is just to great to chance.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

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I could go for the shotgun but really wouldn't want to put his job on the line or get him in any legal trouble.

Sure the cheif made the right call. I would have made the same call as well. But why risk my life and my childrens future to have a dad around w/o the ability to defend oneself?

Maybe a volunteering position in the force would get me trained? Never thought of that yet. Guess I'll need to ask.

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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by Old Ironsights »

Blackhawk wrote:I could go for the shotgun but really wouldn't want to put his job on the line or get him in any legal trouble.

Sure the cheif made the right call. I would have made the same call as well. But why risk my life and my childrens future to have a dad around w/o the ability to defend oneself?

Maybe a volunteering position in the force would get me trained? Never thought of that yet. Guess I'll need to ask.

Johnny
You may want to ask if they have a "Reserve" Officer programme (or Sherriff's Posse). Here you can volunteer, take the local night academy then be put on the "reserve" list for when they are short handed. Normal Reserve duties are unarmed (traffic control during parades etc.) but can be armed in certain circumstances.

Might get you the "right" to carry on ridealongs. Depends on the local surity board.
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by AJMD429 »

RSY wrote: Now, a church must post a 30.06 sign (the official State of Texas "Do Not Carry Here" sign)...
Great number they assigned it... or maybe it's only Springfield '03's and Garand's you can't carry there...?
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Re: POLITICS - Churches & Guns:

Post by RSY »

No, it just happens to be the section number of the TX concealed handgun law that outlines signage requirements for those who don't want CHL-holders on their premises. Of course, I'm sure the numbering wasn't wholly unintentional. :D

In Texas a CHL-holder can ignore any other sign if it does not have the 30.06 verbiage on it.

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