What knives did they use? Really!

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Naphtali
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What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

Nowadays everyone has an opinion regarding that elusive best [fill in the blank]. Rather than "best" I am interested in some reality, two answers to one question - that is, the same question about Alaskan subsistence residents from different eras, Ashley Haines (first decades of twentieth century) and Dick Proenneke (middle decades of the twentieth century). I have been unsuccessful finding the answers.

What were the configuration - dimensions and shape - and brand name if known of each man's generally carried fixed blade knife?

Because of proximity to today, Proenneke's choice is more likely to be known or remembered.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by FWiedner »

I've read that Mr. Proenneke carried some model of Case Stockman in his pocket, and a Schrade Old Timer for a belt knife.

Sounds like whatever might have been commercially available in Anchorage at the time.

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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by mark »

Interesting question.

Perhaps a UK "Sheffield" knife or a US "Green River".

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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I used my google-fu ............ :mrgreen:

Here is a knife designed by Ashley Haines: https://books.google.com/books?id=Pa00K ... fe&f=false



In the closing moments of his film, Dick Proenneke gave the Governor what looks like a Pukko knife; but at the beginning of his film, he has a Case Model 64047p 4-blade folder in his pocket and a SCHRADE USA 165 OLD TIMER on his belt.


Image

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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

Pete44ru:

MANY THANKS

I have one problem - linking to the image at https://books.google.com/books?id=Pa00K ... fe&f=false. I got to the page but the page showed IMAGE NOT AVAILABLE rather than the image.

Would it be possible to put the knife's image in this thread? Or PM me to arrange to email the image as an attachment?
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Pete44ru »

.

It must be your computer, Naphtali, as I had N.P. opening the page when I clicked on the link I posted.

Maybe something's up with your cookies ?

In any even, there's a sketch of the Marble's Haines knife, along with a description:

The Haines Model Hunting Knife was designed by Ashley A. Haines as a skinning, camping, and hunting knife.
A full tang design, the knife has stag handle scales, and was made
(both) with and without a cross) guard.
The wide 6" blade has a "Bowie Hunter" pronounced clip point.



Additionally, I found this pic of one.


Image
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by TravisM »

I found the exact pocket knife Dick Proenneke used. A Case Stockman model# 64047P. I was 4 inches closed.

Image

Image
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Like today , they used what ever knife they had or could afford.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

Not a resurrection, rather a follow-up since my subject of query has been solved. As I investigated, one thing seems to stand from otherwise expected. EDC (every day carry) fixed bladed knives were significantly larger - that is, longer length and "beefier" - in late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries than middle twentieth century to currently.

Were we discussing eighteenth and nineteenth centuries before the close of the frontier, I could understand this. Knives were weapons as well as tools. And the closer our time frame gets to eighteenth century outdoorsman the more weapon-like becomes EDC knives - weapon-like being exceptionally long butcher's knives with or without double guard, evolving to myriad "Bowie" shapes of a bazillion point designs. Knives appear to evolve toward more less weapon-oriented tools as repeating rifles became reliable. But once reliable became pretty much a certainty, EDC knives, for example Ashley's, sort've stopped at pseudo weapons for quite a while.

Animals haven't changed size, extreme climates and terrains haven't been paved or air conditioned, yet EDC knives for those living and working in such areas get more petite. Why?
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Blaine »

Chuck 100 yd wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:43 am Like today , they used what ever knife they had or could afford.
That's what I was thinking. Heck, not that I've done it, but I could field dress a deer with my Leatherman and the saw would be the berries on the pelvis.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by AJMD429 »

Animals haven't changed size, extreme climates and terrains haven't been paved or air conditioned, yet EDC knives for those living and working in such areas get more petite. Why?
Maybe because....

a) the available knives shrank, or

b) guns were able to take over some of the knife duties...

On more than one occasion someone is needing to cut open a package or something and says to me "...do you have a knife...?" And sometimes if I'm in a situation where I'm not likely to need a knife but might need a firearm I'll say "...no but I have a gun..." :lol:
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Ditto, Doc !

I'm usually the go-to guy, when something needs cutting - since (it seems) EVERBODY knows that I always carry a knife or three (all folders of one kind/size or another) in my pants pockets, everywhere except to bed.

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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

I wonder what Ed Stevenson uses? He's about the only reasonably current person who might be among those who EDC in an area where Haines and Proenneke lived. I am uncertain whether he is still active. To my knowledge he was/is a professional guide in Alaska, a trapper, and who with his wife (and family??) live in Alaska's outback year around.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Grizz »

late to the topic, but a very interesting search is to look up 'trade knives' and 'HBC fur trade knives' for a start. lots of history, dimension drawings, trends, photos, etc. they all descended from the same parent, eh?
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Gutted a deer with the sharpened edge of .303 magazine spring.

19th Century knives seem to be either weapons (like the bowie knife) or are butchers knife type, like the Old hickory. 20th century hunting knives were mostly (around here) either green river type curved skinners, (Hide hunters worked here right up to the sixties) Mercator pocket knives, or American hunting knives of the period, mostly five inch blades, similar to the Scrade old timer in the pic above, my Grandfathers and fathers main knives that I inherited were all like that style, with leather washer handles and the same type of leather sheath. (But then they were Americans anyway.)
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Pepe Ray »

Do you remember Ross Seyfried. He was most recognized as a writer for Guns & Ammo magazine, both articles and column . He was a champion pistolero during the early years of action pistol. He spent a time as a registered professional hunter and guide in Africa. A protege to Elmer Kieth and associate of John Linebaugh. In Feb.1986 he wrote an article for G&A titled,'Is Your Knife Cutting It?' His observations and choices were revealing .
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by piller »

High carbon steel still cuts as well as anything around, and the design has a lot to do with how useful a knife is. If you keep it oiled, carbon steel is easy enough to keep. Don't let it rust. A well made knife in carbon steel can be affordable, and that may be what is the primary reason for buying a knife.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Trailboss »

Pete44ru wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:40 am Image
I've been carrying the same SCHRADE WALDEN USA 165 OLD TIMER for over 50 years. It was recommended to me by an Alaskan guide as a professional workhorse knife that won't break under the heaviest use. He was right about that, mine looks similar in wear to the one above.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by marlinman93 »

During that early 20th Century period Western Brand sheath knives were very popular. They were already a fairly old company by that time. Platt family had been involved in knife making for decades. Western started in Boulder, Co. in around 1894, but Charles Platt began knife making in 1864 when he immigrated to the US.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Old Savage »

Pepe, about 1991 when I bought this Seyfried said in an article that this was about the most all-round useful knife he had used. It is made of AUS 8.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Bill in Oregon »

OS, I had a Buck Vanguard that I liked, but got talked into the Cold Steel Master Hunter. Used it for a season and went back to the Buck. Somehow it just fits my paw better.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Old Savage »

That is likely the most important thing. There are all kinds of good steel knives around.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Old Savage »

I find this Dozier to be very comfortable. In D2 with his heat treat it is functionally stainless.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

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Old Savage wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 11:23 am Pepe, about 1991 when I bought this Seyfried said in an article that this was about the most all-round useful knife he had used. It is made of AUS 8.
I have had 3 knives with AUS 8 steel. Never did like it. I tried all 3 based on recommendations from people who were looked up to. I was terribly disappointed in its ability to hold an edge. Not any better than the Buck 420 HC or J20 stainless, which is my personal less than acceptable standard. Any Gerber which cost less than about $150 is also in this category.

I have a Cold Steel Trail Master folder with 52100 steel. It is adequate. It is ball bearing steel. D2 which has been thermocycle heat treated by Bob Dozier is excellent in my opinion. CPM 154, Japanese 134, CPM S30V, CPM S35V, plain old 1095 steel with chromium and vanadium, and S7 if thermocycle heat treated are all good. They hold an edge and are sharpenable by most users. If S7 is not heat treated right, it will be too flexible and never get sharp. If I were to choose something to carry which were to be made with just the blacksmith tools and technology prior to the 1950s, it would be 1095 carbon steel or D2. 52100 and W2 are hard to heat treat well and require a lot of heat to make them soft enough to be hammered into shape. Modern furnaces and being able to bake the quenched steel at multiple temperatures can give knife steel the capability to punch well above its weight class.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Old Savage »

Very contrary to my experience with this AUS 8, holds a very sharp edge and sharpens easily.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I have many other hunting knives, most custom/hand made, but these two commercial tools have been riding in my haversack during a hunt since the early 1980's.

A stainless steel folding Browning Game & Camp Saw (made in Japan) that cuts on the pull stroke, and a 440 stainless Japanese "Sharp" fixed blade that cost me all of $6 (new) back then.


Image


These are what I always use for field dressing medium/large game.

The Browning saw zips right through a deer's pelvic bone - much better than pounding on a knife blade to split it.

The Sharp is an enigma to me........... That knife has field dressed over 50 deer, one or two a year, since I bought it at a K-Mart - and it's NEVER been sharpened by me ! :o

The durn thing is as sharp as when I bought it, and I don't really understand why - but I'm glad it still is (sharp).


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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Pepe Ray »

Old Savage, I'm going to break out my 'Seyfried" file folder as that Cold Steel blade is not the one I had in mind. My memory's going.
By the way, I'm having a tough time navigating around this new format. Will be focusing on your by/line/threads. Hope it wont be too annoying to you.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Old Savage »

Here is a video you may enjoy. Cold Steel SRK AUS 8. I have one in VG 1 which is apparently similar. It has seen no use for an opinion.

https://youtu.be/hFt2QHiZG6E
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by piller »

My old Camillus lever action folder can't make 1 cut on paracord without losing its edge. It is AUS8. My Kershaw blade trader knives are AUS8. They can make 2 cuts through paracord. Then must be resharpened. My spyderco Delica is AUS8. The serrated edge one is good, the plain edge one is incapable of getting sharp.

My cheap Mora knives in stainless steel get sharp and hold an edge. For a knife to use hard like that, softer steel is better. Less chipping.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Old Savage »

Here is what they really used on the old farm 80 to 100 years ago, forged, no brand, carbon steel. Sharpens easily, holds an edge.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

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Some blacksmith lucked into a heat treat about a hundred years ago and his knives were tested by pounding them into a buggy leaf spring then cutting paper. The existing specimens command crazy prices. As far as the heat treat, some modern knife makers claim to have it figured out. He quenched then tempered in something which kept a steady temperature for a long time.

No matter. Decent carbon steel is relatively easy to work, holds a good edge, and is durable. Rust is the main enemy. In cutting competitions even today with all the technology in steels, carbon steel continues to do well. Carbon steel when mostly impurity free has left a bunch of legends behind. The Ulfbehrt swords are one example. The swords of the Rajputs are another. The sword which Roland used to hold off an army in that narrow pass so that Charlemagne's army could get to safety was another. The gladius that Horatius used to hold the bridge so that the Roman engineers could take it apart behind him was another. The swords by Masamune are another example. These were all good clean high carbon steel, and they all sparked legends by destroying lesser quality steel swords. Good clean carbon steel with a good heat treat has made great blades for a thousand years or more. I have a few good carbon steel blades, and they have done all that I have asked, and done it well. Carbon steel still can be used as the Gold Standard of cutting, durability, and edge retention.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

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More or less along those lines the knives I have used the most. The top is a Dexter breaking knife. I call it a chicken splitter because that is what I use it for. Obviously carbon steel. The two in the middle are Forshner high carbon stainless. We have had all these more than 40 years. The bottom is a Camillus Model 51 Barlow like the one I had as a kid. I kept it shaving sharp with an oil stone. It was stolen. Took more than 40 years to find a replacement from the early 60s. Made from 1095. Found it on EBay. Put $100 high bid. It was fun to watch the bids inch up no where near it. So my most used have been carbon/high carbon stainless.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

Pete44ru wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:40 am .

I used my google-fu ............ :mrgreen:

Here is a knife designed by Ashley Haines: https://books.google.com/books?id=Pa00K ... fe&f=false

In the closing moments of his film, Dick Proenneke gave the Governor what looks like a Pukko knife; but at the beginning of his film, he has a Case Model 64047p 4-blade folder in his pocket and a SCHRADE USA 165 OLD TIMER on his belt.

Image

Image
While I had believed our answers answered my original question completely, there's more to identify. The Shrade Model 165 Old Timer began production in 1967. Mr. Proenneke had been in Alaska long before that. What was he using earlier?

I guess I'm not disappointed that the Old Timer's blade was AISI 1095. As was pointed out by by Chuck100, Mr. Proenneke used what he had and had what he could afford. I suspect that Mr. Haines, being an outdoor writer of some prominence, was able to afford to indulge his ideas of knife design. And the photograph of his knife confirms this. (I suspect Mr. Haines occupied a similar authority as Elmer Keith did a generation later.)
Last edited by Naphtali on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by gcs »

I carry a locking folder 3" knife at all times, It's handy, light and won't keep an edge for anything. I'd replace it in an instant but most everything you look at is stainless steel and getting that stuff to stay sharp is a PITA, ...maybe it's me, :mrgreen: , On the other hand, I have some carbon steel Moras, fixed 4" knives that are scalpel sharp, stay sharp under multiple deer,and abuse, and are dirt cheap, like 8 bucks and the sheath is nice too.I love those things, have one on the boat, in the truck, in my hunting pack, and a couple of spares. BEST KNIFE VALUE EVER, lol
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by BigSky56 »

Most of the old timers around here used green river, western and marbles fixed blades, barlow folders seems to have been popular to. I use mora knives for all my cutting and butchering but do have a dexter breakout carbon steel for carving steaks. Swedish stainless is tough to beat and the Scandi grind makes it easy to sharpen with a diamond stone. I usually keep two mora's and a scandi folder plus a hatchet in my day pack. danny
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

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gcs wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:56 am I carry a locking folder 3" knife at all times, It's handy, light and won't keep an edge for anything. I'd replace it in an instant but most everything you look at is stainless steel and getting that stuff to stay sharp is a PITA, ...maybe it's me, :mrgreen: , On the other hand, I have some carbon steel Moras, fixed 4" knives that are scalpel sharp, stay sharp under multiple deer,and abuse, and are dirt cheap, like 8 bucks and the sheath is nice too.I love those things, have one on the boat, in the truck, in my hunting pack, and a couple of spares. BEST KNIFE VALUE EVER, lol
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

To everyone who has participated in my sometimes "unusual" threads: I apologize for being unresponsive recently. I obtained the second of two multivertebrae spinal fusions in the last 15 weeks on August 6. This is the second time my guard-keeper has allowed me this liberty.
***********
Recently I've had a lot of time on my hands. I've been following up my original questions and, especially, information in replies. I had three Gerber Yari II thinnish general purpose drop point knives in one of my "stuff" boxes. While Gerber and the myriad "reviewers" attempted to have the knife identified as a "tactical" or "survival" knife - terms I loathe under nearly all circumstances - it ain't. It proved to be the most useful blade I've used since my nephew and his boys received my Cowry X damascus knives by Ichiro. But Yari II scales were the least usable of any I've experienced. Tony Codella rehandled these Yari IIs in record short time. They now approach perfection for my use. . . . But wait! There's more!

I began this thread to discover what knives (and eventually accoutrements) people used daily who lived the near fantasy life that I - nearly non-ambulatory - would love to emulate. The minor issue with the Yari IIs is their blade length is but a nominal 4.25 inches. Effective length is less. On E(vil)bay I just bought the last of my "finalist" knives - one Half Face Blades Crow Scout with a thinnish but stout saber grind 5-inch clip point, the other being first issue Blade-Tech N'yati. These last knives are closer - much closer, I hope - to Haines' configuration with 5-inch blades of S35VN and S30V respectively. The Kydex® or reinforced fiberglass sheaths furnished with all five knives are unsatisfactory on many levels. All knives require fitted leather sheaths. I prefer to have them affixed with a kind've floppy connective tail much like Scandinavians use but leather rather than cloth cording.

I may be out of my brace by the end of September, so use in the woods - that is Lolo National Forest and "the Bob" - will supercede KP duty.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by JerryB »

Real good info, hope your condition continues to improve so you can hit the trail again.
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Re: What knives did they use? Really!

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Thanks, guys, for the replies and PMs of encouragement on my new and improved posture.

One side note so close to irrelevant that only inactivity might allow me to get away with it. I mentioned the three Gerber Yari IIs that Tony Codella rendered so useful. I discovered their utility using only one of the knives. I used one of my Gatco diamond sharpening fixture systems to put a 19-degree edge on both sides of the non-serrated portion and 19-degree edge - the 'way too hard way - on the serrated portion. The two others still retain the factory edges.

There is an enormous improvement in ease of use from the Gatco-created edging compared with Gerber's factory edge. I mention this because I am now convinced that judging any knife's overall quality only from using it as it comes sharpened from the maker will almost certainly shortchange knife and maker. Since sharpening by way of using stones and [my sharpening] skills, does not yield that uniform edge I want, I use a fixture rather than "free hand" sharpening. And among the less expensive fixture systems, Gatco stones are the widest I have identified - wider stones being quicker and easier for me to use.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson
coyote nose
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Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:25 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by coyote nose »

Old Coyote' Nose here carries a Buck 110 folding Hunter while disappearing in the Wind River Mountains or the Beartooth Mts for awhile..... given to him by his Dad back in the snowy winter of 1979
"...for there is a cloud on my horizon...and its name is progress." E. Abbey, 1958
Trailboss
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:57 am

Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Trailboss »

I still have my Grandpa's sheath knife, a Marble Arms. It's been sharpened a bunch of times but still carries a good edge. He was a guide in the U.P. of Michigan in the 1920's - 1940's.
Naphtali
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Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Naphtali »

I received a "Plain Jane" Half Face Blades Crow Scout and a New Old Stock Blade-Tech N'yati S30V (currently reintroduced with D-2 blade steel). I have not sharpened or used either as yet and estimate I will not for at least three weeks - that is, after my next appointment with my neurosurgeon.

Here's what I can report.
1. N'yati's blade is 4.875 inches, Crow Scout's is 5.125 inches. Because of where edge grinds begin, Crow Scout's blade edge is significantly longer than N'yati's.

2. Quality control on both appears very good. Crow Scout's QC is superior - as well it should be considering the buying price difference.

3. Both, but especially the Crow Scout, are substantially beefier than I had anticipated.

4. Both have Kydex® sheaths. N'yati's sheath is sealed in plastic so I'll never know how well it fits. Having typed that, I use only leather sheaths, custom made if needed.

5. Handle/grips look and feel quite a bit different. Until I use them for several weeks I cannot report one being easier to use than the other. Having typed that, neither feels unusable.

6. N'yati's profile is much closer to Haines' than Crow Scout's. However Crow Scout's clip point is surprisingly well designed. It's point [area] has significantly more metal - sturdier - than most other clip point blades I've experienced.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson
Bill in Oregon
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Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: What knives did they use? Really!

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Friend, I just hope you can get out before too awful long in that God's country you live in and get a chance to use those knives.
I had a double fusion, L2-3, L3-4, back in 2012, and it was a good four-five months before I began to feel human again.
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