Silly question...people say 45 Colt lever guns aren't as strong because of the thinner chamber, but...

[lazarus870]

But does that mean .44 is weaker than the smaller .357 which has more metal in the chamber?

Silly question, I know.

[Galloway]

In theory yes

[C Lee Nickel]

I agree with Galloway. However, each caliber is also limited by the cartridge. From a reloader's standpoint, given that .45 Long Colt cartridges are thinner than either .44 mag or .357, one would see cartridge failures, or perhaps even harm to other parts of the gun, well before one would reach the pressures necessary to blow the chamber.

I remember when I owned a Colt New Frontier .45 revolver (Wish I still owned THAT gun!), the gun was capable of handling pressures somewhat higher than the old "Blackpowder Colts" just because of metallurgy alone (Better steel). I don't know if it means I'm a masochist, but I have a tendency to reload towards the higher end of the scale (Given I'm a lefty, I have the swollen middle knuckle on my left hand to prove it! ) I would start seeing split cases and a few loose primer pockets after just a couple reloads of my "hot loads", but never worried about breaking the gun because I never exceeded the specs "for modern guns" listed in reloading manuals. I would have to think the chamber on the average levergun is also stronger than the chamber on the fluted cylinder of a revolver.

[Pisgah]

It should be kept in mind as well that maximum pressures for the +P and "Ruger Only" .45 Colt loads are less than those for either .357 or .44 Magnums. One of the benefits of increased case capacity.

[J Miller]

The .45 Colt brass is not the weak link. Modern .45 Colt brass is the same thickness as .44 Mag brass and capable of pretty much the same pressures. Older brass is not as strong.

The biggest problems is the chambers of modern rifles and revolvers chambered for the .45s are usually cut to, or near to SAMMI max specs. I do not know why this is, but is.
My own JM Marlin and USRC Win 94AE, Ruger OM Blackhawk (both old and new cylinders), all have large chambers, and occasionally I'll get a case split, usually with SAMMI spec loads. When using loads in the 30K PSI range ( Hodgdon #26 manual) the cases will expand fully and you can really get an idea how large the chambers really are.

None of this is of any concern to me though as both rifles are fully capable of shooting those loads safely on the rare occasion I do use them.

Joe

[cas]

I had a 45 colt 94AE with a H-U-G-E chamber. But the only thing it shot worth a darn were 300gr JHP's pushed with a charge of W296 that I would never repeat in public. The brass held up just fine, large as it was. (of course the huge chamber probably helped with pressures as well)

[vancelw]

I agree with Galloway. However, each caliber is also limited by the cartridge. From a reloader's standpoint, given that .45 Long Colt cartridges are thinner than either .44 mag or .357, one would see cartridge failures, or perhaps even harm to other parts of the gun, well before one would reach the pressures necessary to blow the chamber.

I've never seen any .45 Long Colt brass, so I don't know how weak it is. But I load a lot of my .45 Colt brass to +P+ to shoot out of my Redhawk and 1892. Never had a case failure. Out of thousands of rounds. I would use my .45 Colt 1892 Winchester for anything I would use my .44 Magnum 1892 rifle for.
My SAA and my 1866 use only normal .45 Colt loads.

[C Lee Nickel]

I agree with Galloway. However, each caliber is also limited by the cartridge. From a reloader's standpoint, given that .45 Long Colt cartridges are thinner than either .44 mag or .357, one would see cartridge failures, or perhaps even harm to other parts of the gun, well before one would reach the pressures necessary to blow the chamber.

I've never seen any .45 Long Colt brass, so I don't know how weak it is. But I load a lot of my .45 Colt brass to +P+ to shoot out of my Redhawk and 1892. Never had a case failure. Out of thousands of rounds. I would use my .45 Colt 1892 Winchester for anything I would use my .44 Magnum 1892 rifle for.
My SAA and my 1866 use only normal .45 Colt loads.

Never seen .45 Long Colt brass? How do you know it isn't ACP?

I never heard of .45 Long Colt +P+! But I'm old!

I owned my Colt New Frontier back around 1980, so a couple things could have happened. I may have had a gun with an oversize chamber..Colt had a spotty reputation for quality back then, but it sure was a pretty gun and I never had any issues with it. Or, maybe it was the old thinner brass..I haven't owned a .45 Long Colt since (but do have a couple ACP's ). Heck, I still have some reloading manuals from the 70's, but all my old .45 LONG Colt brass is LONG gone!

(Psst! Don't tell everyone, but I shoot .44 mag out of a Winchester 94 and a Ruger Vaquero, and I split cases from time to time in those too!)

[vancelw]

Never seen .45 Long Colt brass? How do you know it isn't ACP?

I never heard of .45 Long Colt +P+! But I'm old!

I owned my Colt New Frontier back around 1980, so a couple things could have happened. I may have had a gun with an oversize chamber..Colt had a spotty reputation for quality back then, but it sure was a pretty gun and I never had any issues with it. Or, maybe it was the old thinner brass..I haven't owned a .45 Long Colt since (but do have a couple ACP's ). Heck, I still have some reloading manuals from the 70's, but all my old .45 LONG Colt brass is LONG gone!

(Psst! Don't tell everyone, but I shoot .44 mag out of a Winchester 94 and a Ruger Vaquero, and I split cases from time to time in those too!)

Because .45 ACP is so marked (never mind the shape of the case head) and .45 Colt is marked .45 Colt. Yes, my .45 Colt +P+ is so marked. PMC used to load a Bronze load using 300 gr Hornady XTP when they were owned by the previous company. I also have no problem finding my .45 Schofield brass (as it is properly marked) but I don't have any .45 Government brass. I do have some .45 Autorim

Can you please post a pic of the headstamp of your .45 LONG Colt brass?

[harry]

I would like to see a pic of the headstamp of any .45 SHORT Colt brass.

[vancelw]

I would like to see a pic of the headstamp of any .45 SHORT Colt brass.

exactly.

Or a Colt firearm with Long Colt or LC stamped on it.

But....When idiots get .300 Win mag and .300 Weatherby confused (and lots of others) I guess the confusion will reign eternal.

[Griff]

But does that mean .44 is weaker than the smaller .357 which has more metal in the chamber?

Silly question, I know.

Comparing apples, pears and oranges is a fruitless endeavor. Since there's no difference between the .480 Ruger chambered Rossi mdl 92 and my 45Colt in regards to barrel dimension, bolt face size and locking system, I see no problem loading my 45Colt to much higher pressures than my other guns chambered for the same cartridge, (several), are capable of handling.

[cas]

(sadly there are guns marked 45 long colt or LC)

[vancelw]

(sadly there are guns marked 45 long colt or LC)

Copies. Never seen an original so marked.

But....we're OT.

[C Lee Nickel]

Never seen .45 Long Colt brass? How do you know it isn't ACP?

I never heard of .45 Long Colt +P+! But I'm old!

I owned my Colt New Frontier back around 1980, so a couple things could have happened. I may have had a gun with an oversize chamber..Colt had a spotty reputation for quality back then, but it sure was a pretty gun and I never had any issues with it. Or, maybe it was the old thinner brass..I haven't owned a .45 Long Colt since (but do have a couple ACP's ). Heck, I still have some reloading manuals from the 70's, but all my old .45 LONG Colt brass is LONG gone!

(Psst! Don't tell everyone, but I shoot .44 mag out of a Winchester 94 and a Ruger Vaquero, and I split cases from time to time in those too!)

Because .45 ACP is so marked (never mind the shape of the case head) and .45 Colt is marked .45 Colt. Yes, my .45 Colt +P+ is so marked. PMC used to load a Bronze load using 300 gr Hornady XTP when they were owned by the previous company. I also have no problem finding my .45 Schofield brass (as it is properly marked) but I don't have any .45 Government brass. I do have some .45 Autorim

Can you please post a pic of the headstamp of your .45 LONG Colt brass?

Ask, and ye shall receive.... (Hey, I don't manufacture the stuff, I just read the scribble printed on 'em! )

45 Long Colt.jpg

45 Long Colts.jpg

45_Long_COlt_Bear_Load__05994.1355510130.386.513.jpg

armscor_45_Long_colt_ammo__57838.1442003833.1280.1280.jpg

45 LC.jpg

Full disclosure: I haven't owned a 45 Long Colt, firearm or ammo, for decades...but I guess I could go buy some of each if I want to. And I've never heard of "El Dorado Arms" either.

[gundownunder]

I really cannot believe that the 45 Colt/long colt issue is still doing the rounds.
In 1871, Smith and Wesson patented the 45 Schofield.
The US army used both the 45 Schofield, and the 45 Colt peacemaker.
The Schofield rounds would feed through the Peacemaker revolvers but the Colt round would not feed through the Schofield revolvers. Calling the 45 Colt, long colt would tell you right away that you can't stuff them into your Schofield revolver.
Just to remove some of the confusion, the 45 ACP hadn't been invented when the long Colt issue came up. That new fangled thing wouldn't appear for another 34 years.

[J Miller]

Prior to this thread and these pics I'd never seen any 45 Colt cases marked 45 LC or anything similar. Doesn't mean they are right, but now I need to get some for my cartridge collection.

Anybody got some empties they'd be willing to sell me>

Joe

[vancelw]

Oh I've seen plenty of boxes of ammo marked Long Colt and seen plenty of firearms marked LC.
Never seen a case hard marked that was before.
I guess with enough stupidity around, some of it stuck.

Starline will put whatever you want on the case head stamp if you buy enough (I think 10,000)

I never have understood why people want to have a reproduction gun that is erroneously marked.

Now...show me a Colt firearm marked Long Colt or LC.

[vancelw]

I really cannot believe that the 45 Colt/long colt issue is still doing the rounds.
In 1871, Smith and Wesson patented the 45 Schofield.
The US army used both the 45 Schofield, and the 45 Colt peacemaker.
The Schofield rounds would feed through the Peacemaker revolvers but the Colt round would not feed through the Schofield revolvers. Calling the 45 Colt, long colt would tell you right away that you can't stuff them into your Schofield revolver.
Just to remove some of the confusion, the 45 ACP hadn't been invented when the long Colt issue came up. That new fangled thing wouldn't appear for another 34 years.

That's why the army used .45 Goverment round and issued them to those who had either firearm.

[vancelw]

Can you please post a pic of the headstamp of your .45 Long Colt brass?

Ask, and ye shall receive.... (Hey, I don't manufacture the stuff, I just read the scribble printed on 'em! )


45 Long Colt.jpg45 Long Colts.jpg45_Long_COlt_Bear_Load__05994.1355510130.386.513.jpgarmscor_45_Long_colt_ammo__57838.1442003833.1280.1280.jpg45 LC.jpg

Full disclosure: I haven't owned a 45 Long Colt, firearm or ammo, for decades...but I guess I could go buy some of each if I want to. And I've never heard of "El Dorado Arms" either.

So.....just how long did it take you to find those images on Google?

Where is the picture of your brass marked ".45 Long Colt"?

I take it the repro SAA is not yours, either, since you say you've never heard of El Dorado. A firm called El Dorado is/was the owner of PMC ammunition.

You know, you can also buy toy flying saucers and aliens....is that proof they exist?

I do believe you may be a troll, since you act so knowledgeable about things you don't own. Facebook might suit you better as the audience is more gullible.

[C Lee Nickel]

Can you please post a pic of the headstamp of your .45 Long Colt brass?

Ask, and ye shall receive.... (Hey, I don't manufacture the stuff, I just read the scribble printed on 'em! )


45 Long Colt.jpg45 Long Colts.jpg45_Long_COlt_Bear_Load__05994.1355510130.386.513.jpgarmscor_45_Long_colt_ammo__57838.1442003833.1280.1280.jpg45 LC.jpg

Full disclosure: I haven't owned a 45 Long Colt, firearm or ammo, for decades...but I guess I could go buy some of each if I want to. And I've never heard of "El Dorado Arms" either.

So.....just how long did it take you to find those images on Google?

Where is the picture of your brass marked ".45 Long Colt"?

I take it the repro SAA is not yours, either, since you say you've never heard of El Dorado. A firm called El Dorado is/was the owner of PMC ammunition.

You know, you can also buy toy flying saucers and aliens....is that proof they exist?

I do believe you may be a troll, since you act so knowledgeable about things you don't own. Facebook might suit you better as the audience is more gullible.

So, because I have a different opinion than you I must be a troll? More importantly, why get so uptight over something that you cannot control? Life's too short. Relax and have some fun. Certainly the .45 Colt/Long Colt issue is nothing to lose sleep over. Fact is, we used the term .45 Long Colt to differentiate between the revolver round and the .45 ACP round back in the 1970's at my dad's gun shop, and it didn't come from us, it came from local WW2 vets who were raised on ranches with single and double action revolvers who were introduced to auto pistols in the war. When folks would set around the fireplace at my dad's shop and talk guns, we'd be talking Colt .45, .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .45 Auto, etc. etc. and I would assume it was just easier to identify something specifically so everyone had a better idea of what was being discussed. Thus, .45 Long Colt instantly identified the revolver round vs. .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) or Colt .45 (Hey, that ain't a gun, that's a Malt Liquor!). I never knew of anyone who owned a .45 Schofield, so that didn't enter the picture.

I clearly stated I pulled all those pics off the internet. It took me about a minute to find them, and anyone could do it. Thus, I verified that yes, indeed, the .45 Colt is sometimes referred to, quasi-officially at least, as the .45 Long Colt. And if you choose to refuse to acknowledge ".45 LC" as "Long Colt", or think the pics are fakes, then by all means, do so. No skin off my nose.

Ever hear of Elmer Keith? Ever read his writings? He (Or his editors) refers to the .45 Colt revolver round as "Long Colt" from time to time, and letters providing provenance for his firearms refer to his guns as .45 LC. Well, I'm an oldster. If it's good enough for Elmer Keith, it's good enough for me.

So think of me what you will, believe me or not, I'm long passed worrying about what others think of me. I'll continue to use the .45 Long Colt label because it suits me..... and these fellers:

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/the-famou ... -2414.html

Now I gotta go change out a fuel pump on my 1959 Chevy Viking before it hits 100 out there..see ya' later!!!

(And just for the record, since you brought it up: I believe in flying saucers, too. Spent too many remote desert nights looking at weird flying stuff not to. But that's for a different discussion.)

[vancelw]

So think of me what you will, believe me or not, I'm long passed worrying about what others think of me. I'll continue to use the .45 Long Colt label because it suits me..... and these fellers:

I win! ....'cause I think you do care
You can call it the wrong thing to your hearts desire, because it does suit you.

(And just for the record, since you brought it up: I believe in flying saucers, too. Spent too many remote desert nights looking at weird flying stuff not to. But that's for a different discussion.)

Flying saucers don't even make sense. Not an efficient design. Lay off the peyote. Or Hoppes #9, something has you loopy. Everyone knows warp drive is not dependent on vessel shape.

Don't be mad. I like pushing "easy buttons." Look on the bright side. You doubled your post count even if you didn't learn anything.

[C Lee Nickel]

So think of me what you will, believe me or not, I'm long passed worrying about what others think of me. I'll continue to use the .45 Long Colt label because it suits me..... and these fellers:

I win! ....'cause I think you do care
You can call it the wrong thing to your hearts desire, because it does suit you.

(And just for the record, since you brought it up: I believe in flying saucers, too. Spent too many remote desert nights looking at weird flying stuff not to. But that's for a different discussion.)

Flying saucers don't even make sense. Not an efficient design. Lay off the peyote. Or Hoppes #9, something has you loopy. Everyone knows warp drive is not dependent on vessel shape.

Don't be mad. I like pushing "easy buttons." Look on the bright side. You doubled your post count even if you didn't learn anything.

I had no idea this is a competition, but I'm happy for you that you feel you've won. Obviously that is very important to you.

I do hope you are happy with your prize!

[C Lee Nickel]

Prior to this thread and these pics I'd never seen any 45 Colt cases marked 45 LC or anything similar. Doesn't mean they are right, but now I need to get some for my cartridge collection.

Anybody got some empties they'd be willing to sell me>

Joe

I've got a big ole' pile of range pick-up brass to go through, and I know there's some .45 in there. Don't pass up any offers, but if I find anything unusual, you got 'em if you want 'em.

[J Miller]

Prior to this thread and these pics I'd never seen any 45 Colt cases marked 45 LC or anything similar. Doesn't mean they are right, but now I need to get some for my cartridge collection.

Anybody got some empties they'd be willing to sell me>

Joe

I've got a big ole' pile of range pick-up brass to go through, and I know there's some .45 in there. Don't pass up any offers, but if I find anything unusual, you got 'em if you want 'em.

Lee,

Thanks. Let me know if you find any brass like that. Love to add ot to my collection.

I'll admit I'm a firm believer that the 45 Colt - LC thing will never go away even though I never use the name LC.
But that don't mean we need to get into a tinkle tussle over it.

As for the brass, I've been shooting the .45 Colt since 1973 give or take and have amassed literally 1000's of cases along the way. Like I said above, in all that time I'd never seen one marked like that. You can see how important it is to me cos I never did a search on them .

Joe

[Malamute]

Keith wrote that there was a definite good reason to use the term long colt, but his point of reference was the early decades of the 1900s when there were several variations of the 45 govt/Schofield, and a version made for DA revolvers with slightly wider rim. In todays context, it would be tough to confuse the 45 colt revolver cartridge with 45 auto. I dont think Ive ever heard of anyone actually use the term colt with the 45 auto cartridge, unless it was referring to the gun using the cartridge, the "ACP" part notwithstanding.

I came into a collection of Shooters Bibles from the 40s thru the 60s. There are several references in the Colt listing of their revolvers being called 45 long colt caliber, though Ive not seen it on a gun made by colt. It was also common in past years to refer to magazines as clips, and "clip magazine" by a number of manufacturers.

[vancelw]

It was also common in past years to refer to magazines as clips, and "clip magazine" by a number of manufacturers.

That internet spat comes up often. I usually kill it by explaining that every repeating arm has a magazine (place where the ammo is stored) and every magazine has some way of holding the ammo in (usually a stop, or a clip). A removeable magazine has a clip built into it. It keeps the bullets from flying out the end when the removeable magazine is not in the magazine well.

One of my LEO academy instructors was ranting about clip vs magazine in reference to his Garand he brought to the range that day. After I told him his rifle had both, as the clip held the 8 rounds together to be inserted into the magazine, he got a funny expression on his face and ruminated a while. Subject never came up again.

[vancelw]

I had no idea this is a competition, but I'm happy for you that you feel you've won. Obviously that is very important to you.

I do hope you are happy with your prize!

That is why you fail. All life is a competition. Learning things is a goal. Like the fact that Colt never marketed a gun in .45 Long Colt, or .45 Short Colt.
We can all search Google, so you usually don't get much love here by posting google images. Post pictures of your own stuff and you might possibly gain some credibility.
I have unfollowed all but 2 FB gun pages, because the of tedium of reading post after post of urban-legend gun rumors being beat to death.....

[C Lee Nickel]

I had no idea this is a competition, but I'm happy for you that you feel you've won. Obviously that is very important to you.

I do hope you are happy with your prize!

That is why you fail. All life is a competition. Learning things is a goal. Like the fact that Colt never marketed a gun in .45 Long Colt, or .45 Short Colt.
We can all search Google, so you usually don't get much love here by posting google images. Post pictures of your own stuff and you might possibly gain some credibility.
I have unfollowed all but 2 FB gun pages, because the of tedium of reading post after post of urban-legend gun rumors being beat to death.....

Fail? Hardly. Learning is only limited by the ability and/or desire of the student to accept and absorb new information.

In that vein, here's some more learnin' fer ya'. Do with it what you will. What guns do you suppose Colt marketed these for? :

.45 long colt.jpg

.45 long colt side.jpg

[C Lee Nickel]

Keith wrote that there was a definite good reason to use the term long colt, but his point of reference was the early decades of the 1900s when there were several variations of the 45 govt/Schofield, and a version made for DA revolvers with slightly wider rim. In todays context, it would be tough to confuse the 45 colt revolver cartridge with 45 auto. I dont think Ive ever heard of anyone actually use the term colt with the 45 auto cartridge, unless it was referring to the gun using the cartridge, the "ACP" part notwithstanding.

I came into a collection of Shooters Bibles from the 40s thru the 60s. There are several references in the Colt listing of their revolvers being called 45 long colt caliber, though Ive not seen it on a gun made by colt. It was also common in past years to refer to magazines as clips, and "clip magazine" by a number of manufacturers.

I've always considered myself fortunate to have been raised around folks of Keith's generation with similar backgrounds. Miners, loggers, sawmill workers, ranchers, etc. who lived the types of lives Keith writes about in his book "Hell, I was there!" (I'm also fortunate to have obtained a copy of that book decades ago and hang on to it!). Perhaps my dad's sporting goods store in the Idaho panhandle, with a large gun department, attracted more than societies share of people like that, but sitting around the big circular fireplace, or on the steps to the upstairs clothing area, was quite a learning experience. I kind of long for those days..both the days of hanging out with those folks, mostly gone now, and the days they talked about in their pasts. They lived in a time when the term "gun culture" would not have been used as a pejorative.

I agree it would be tough for someone to confuse a .45 revolver round with a .45 ACP if they had them in sight. I haven't really thought much about it, but I guess that's because I've never met such contentious attitude towards using the term .45 Long Colt as I've seen from some overly competitive folks I've experienced of late . I suppose using the term Long Colt was merely a method of instantly identifying the cartridge during storytelling, or when discussing guns that weren't present. One could easily fail to catch the rather subtle difference between ".45 Colt" and "Colt .45", but it would be harder to miss a more direct description like ".45 Long Colt". And I suppose some of those old timers did actually have experience with the various variations of .45 revolver cartridges in their lives. One thing I do know, Elmer Keith was legendary even in life and almost universally known by all the elder "gun guys" who frequented my dad's shop, so no doubt there was that influence too.

I love the old Shooter's Bibles! I've got a couple, but not near enough. Another book I like is an old Lyman Reloading book from the 50's or 60's that I look through from time to time. The number of defunct cartridges is amazing, and kind of sad to me. Given I cast my own bullets, the amount of cast bullet info in those old books is very helpful too.

Hey, in addition to the ponderings over ".45 Colt/Long Colt" and "Clip/Magazine", here's another: Over the years, I've seen it argued that pistols are not revolvers, and revolvers are not pistols. Or that revolvers are a subset of pistols. Or that both are merely subsets of "handguns"... Either way, I'm never going to accept the idea that a "Mare's Leg" is considered a pistol .

[marlinman93]

Cartridge brass adds virtually nothing to chamber strength. All brass is too soft to give much additional strength to a firearm's chamber. Some brass is definitely thinner than others, so case life is an issue.
The .44 magnum may be slightly thinner in the chamber than a .357 Magnum, and both are thicker than a .45 Colt. But we need to look at SAAMI chamber pressures for each cartridge to really determine strength. Since the SAAMI rating for .45 Colt is only 14,000 psi, it's never going to see the pressures of a .44 magnum at 36,000 psi or a .357 magnum at 40,000 psi. So really the thinner walls of a .45 Colt mean nothing, unless you push your .45 Colt way over SAAMI specs.

[GunnyMack]

If an action is the same for 357,44 or 45 then the action is made to withstand the highest pressure round it's chambered for... The heat treatment is not different for various calibers. So the action is plenty strong for 357 or 45.

I know people that call it a Long Colt and others that insist it's just Colt. I guess people will always argue that point, just like the 308/30-06 debate as to which is better!

[marlinman93]

I know people that call it a Long Colt and others that insist it's just Colt. I guess people will always argue that point, just like the 308/30-06 debate as to which is better!

Have you ever seen a box of ammo marked ".45 Long Colt"? That should be a hint as to which is correct.

[Les Staley]

All righty, then, how about the Model of 1917 vs the Pattern 14 discussion? Very few posts get that right.........

[GunnyMack]

I know it's 45 Colt. I was trying to make the point that the action strength isn't going to change by caliber...