Hepburn dilema

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marlinman93
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Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

A year ago I purchased a Hepburn Match B rifle. Was pretty excited as they made so few Match B's and I'd been looking for one so long!
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Fast forward to a couple months ago, and I finally got around to setting it up to shoot! The Hepburn is in .32-40 Ballard & Marlin, so takes standard .32-40 brass, which made me even happier! (for almost a year!) Then I sat down and slugged the perfect bore! The round lead ball measured .327" after coming out, and I was a bit shocked. I even slugged it a 2nd time, as I figured I must be mistaken, but nope.
It seems one of two things took place at some time in it's life. As a match rifle, it was either ordered from Remington to be used as a "breech seater", or later re-rifled to enlarge the bore, and shoot it as a breech seater. Either way, there was no way I was ever going to seat a .328" bullet in a .32-40 case, and be able to chamber it in this gun! Beyond the large bore, it has a very tight chamber, so seating a unsized case from any of my other .32-40 caliber guns wouldn't happen. All the others have larger chambers!
I dug through my old single shot tools and dug out a push seater for seating bullets into the bore. Tried a smaller .325" bullet I had and it worked fine, but I needed bigger. So dug through my molds and found a Lee 180 grain 8mm mold that was .323" and decided to modify the base band to .328" diameter. Using my drill press and my decimal drill index, I stepped it up one size at a time until I got to .328" Then I reassembled the mold and cast some bullets to check them for as cast diameter and trueness. All checked good, so ready to try it breech seating. Gave the push seater another try with the larger bullets and it worked fine, but I could tell if I shot a fair amount, my hand would get tired seating bullets into the bore.
It's the tool with the light oak knob below in this picture:
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By chance I had purchased some .40-90 Ballard brass from Jerry Cleave in Squaw Valley, Ca, and mentioned my predicament. Jerry builds some pretty nice tools for schuetzen shooters, and said he was building copies of the old Schoyen breech seater toggle tool for a Hepburn. So I sent him two fired cases to use for the guide, and I got back a beautiful tool!

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It drops in place beautifully and has plenty of leverage to breech seat a bullet with ease! The fit and finish is as fine as any high end gun, and every part has a matching serial number on it! The handle can be moved from right to left side in a few seconds by removing one screw! I'll try it left side, as it allows the gun to sit on the bench, and seat bullets with my left hand. But I'll try right hand also, just to see which feels best!

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Can't wait to get my new bullet, and the Cleave tool out to see how it shoots in the Hepburn!
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JerryB
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by JerryB »

Now that is a real bunch of working things out to be able to shoot that rifle. I reckon you will be plumb tickled to put a round down range with it.
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by walks with gun »

That rifle is downright stunning.
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by walks with gun »

I don't suppose by some strange chance, you named her Audrey Hepburn by any chance.
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marlinman93
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

JerryB wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:12 pm Now that is a real bunch of working things out to be able to shoot that rifle. I reckon you will be plumb tickled to put a round down range with it.
I have fired some rounds downrange when I first got it. Of course they weren't properly sized, but shot pretty good groups until the bore started to lead up! Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing how the old girl shoots with properly fitted bullets breech seated!
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marlinman93
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Re: Hepburn dilema

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walks with gun wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:29 pm I don't suppose by some strange chance, you named her Audrey Hepburn by any chance.
Thanks! No, I don't usually name guns, but do have a couple that buddies named! One name in particular stuck, when I bought my Schoyen Ballard and it came in a fitted case covered in Hereford skin, with the hair still on! My friends call it "The Hereford Gun" it seems it can't shake the name now! :)

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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by jeepnik »

Now here is where a time machine would be great. Because I think it's the only way you'll ever figure out how this rifle came to be. Still, it is a beaut.
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marlinman93
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Re: Hepburn dilema

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jeepnik wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:07 am Now here is where a time machine would be great. Because I think it's the only way you'll ever figure out how this rifle came to be. Still, it is a beaut.
Fortunately I don't need a time machine on the "Hereford" gun. I know a lot about it, other than how many owners it may have had in between. It was of course a factory Marlin Ballard, and from the frame and double set triggers, it likely started life as a #5 Pacific. Then in the late 1800's it was reworked into the schuetzen configuration shown at the shop of famed gun/barrel maker Geo. C. Schoyen of Denver, Co. The gun got a new Schoyen 1.25" diameter barrel, chambered in .32-40 and a set of birdseye maple stocks, with a large Swiss buttplate, palm rest, and grip adapter. Schoyen died in 1910, so work was done sometime in the pre 1910 era. Fast forward to the late 20th century, and whoever owned it in between, it saw numerous changes to barrel with various scopes and mounting points. Originally equipped for a Schoyen/Peterson scope, it had dovetails and holes for numerous other scopes. And at some point got a nice new ugly hot blued finish!
At that point the owner needed some dental work in the Tucson, Arizona area, and found Doc Davis. A dentist who loved guns, and gladly traded dental work for the Schoyen Ballard! Doc either got the case with the Ballard, or had it built. Doc passed away in June of 2015, and it gets a bit blurry at this point, as many of his friends wanted the rifle, but it somehow got sold to someone who simply wanted to turn a profit. I ran into that seller at the Denver gun show last May and purchased the gun. Fortunately I also ran into one of Doc's long time friends who immediately recognized the Schoyen and told me the story of where it had been later in life.
I decided the gun was worth saving, and after plugging all the holes, dovetails, and draw filing the octagon flats, I had Al Springer put a proper rust blue on the barrel, and re-case harden the receiver and parts. It's now back to what it hopefully looked like when it was first built by Geo C Schoyen.
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by Blaine »

:oops: My ignorance is about to show:

So, a bullet is manually seated, and then a case of powder is loaded in behind it? Is there anything to keep the powder from spilling out of the brass....Honestly, today is the first I've heard of such a thing.... :oops:
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by Sixgun »

Marlinman,
One thing for sure, a man has got to have great knowledge of such guns before purchasing as these dilemmas come up quite often in the "old gun world". I believe your assumption of the gun being "freshened" up makes sense. Very interesting and challenging to bring accurate life into such a masterpiece from a bygone era.

You have more patience than me....breech seating?....I watch those guys at our gunclub during the cast bullet matches once a month and I'm amazed at their patience...$3,000 guns with $2,000 scopes with an accoutrement of another $1,000 worth of loading tools..........like 30 minutes for five....or is it 10 shots?.....anyway, I'm a guy used to shucking and juggling a pocket full of dirty brass in 20 seconds. :D

Yes, your doing it the proper way....being a redneck, I'd just fireform a 32-40 case to accept the proper sized bullet, order a special mould, and if that did not work, I'd have the chamber opened up so it could or turn it into the 33 Pope.....I thinks that's they called an opened up 32-40

Interesting.....let us know how it shoots. Beautiful rifle! ----6
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marlinman93
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

BlaineG wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:04 pm :oops: My ignorance is about to show:

So, a bullet is manually seated, and then a case of powder is loaded in behind it? Is there anything to keep the powder from spilling out of the brass....Honestly, today is the first I've heard of such a thing.... :oops:
Blaine, you have the correct understanding. A bullet is dropped into the bore, or set in the end of the breech seater tool (if it is small enough bore) and then the tool is inserted as you see it above on my Hepburn, and seated into the bore. The depth it's seated to is adjustable, so you can seat it where your gun shoots best. Then a case is charged with powder and put in the chamber behind the bullet. After that it's fired just like any fixed bullet ammo. This method has proven to be extremely accurate, and shooters shooting schuetzen matches still use this method over fixed ammo today.
Powder doesn't normally spill out, as smokeless is used, and rarely is full enough to dump out unless you were to point the muzzle downhill and purposely dump it.
Another unique point of breech seating is shooters often use just one case to shoot a complete match! With a Pope style re-decapping tool, you can pop out a primer, re-prime it, and charge the case with powder over and over. I use a modified Pope tool made by Meacham, which unlike Pope's will accept RCBS shell holders for various calibers. It makes depriming and repriming very quick work!

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But if I want to shoot faster, I go to the range with 50-100 cases primed and charged already. Then it's a matter of maybe 5-10 seconds for each reload and I'm ready to shoot another round. I just seat the bullet, grab a charged case and close the action. Only part longer than regular shooting is dropping a bullet in and seating it.
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marlinman93
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

Sixgun wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:52 pm Marlinman,
One thing for sure, a man has got to have great knowledge of such guns before purchasing as these dilemmas come up quite often in the "old gun world". I believe your assumption of the gun being "freshened" up makes sense. Very interesting and challenging to bring accurate life into such a masterpiece from a bygone era.

You have more patience than me....breech seating?....I watch those guys at our gunclub during the cast bullet matches once a month and I'm amazed at their patience...$3,000 guns with $2,000 scopes with an accoutrement of another $1,000 worth of loading tools..........like 30 minutes for five....or is it 10 shots?.....anyway, I'm a guy used to shucking and juggling a pocket full of dirty brass in 20 seconds. :D

Yes, your doing it the proper way....being a redneck, I'd just fireform a 32-40 case to accept the proper sized bullet, order a special mould, and if that did not work, I'd have the chamber opened up so it could or turn it into the 33 Pope.....I thinks that's they called an opened up 32-40

Interesting.....let us know how it shoots. Beautiful rifle! ----6
Sixgun,
The thought of reaming the chamber on an old gun makes me cringe! There are some fine gunsmiths who could do so, and do it well, but far more who'd screw it up. That Schoyen Ballard has a larger bore also, but .325" groove size. I am already breech seating it, and guess that's how it was fired from day one.
I do enjoy taking my time shooting, and don't mind breech seating. I'm fairly new to it, as a couple years ago I only read about it, but didn't want to mess with it. Then I kept ending up with old single shot rifles with bores too large, and they required breech seating. But my first problem child was actually a .32-40 Ballard with a bore too small! It has a .315" bore with a 1:15" twist. When I used a .316" bullet it fell into the neck of a sized .32-40 case! I got out my set of .32 Long Redding dies and bumped the necks down to give some tension, and then belled them to accept the .316" bullet. Worked well, but I decided to give breech seating a try, as I figured the neck of my cases were smaller than the chamber and probably would wear out brass quickly!
I had some materials, so I built a breech seater to fit my Ballard, and since then use it on many of my Ballard rifles in .32-40 and .38-55 (with a separate guide rod). This is my Ballard breech seating tool I built:

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It hooks on the back of the action, straddling the hammer with the brass hook. Then the "plow handle" is pushed forward to seat the bullet. I made it wide and large for good leverage, but also high enough to go above old target scopes.
I am occasionally approached at the range when shooters get curious what I'm doing while shooting the old guns this method. You'd be amazed how many guys I offer to let shoot my old singles this way, get pretty excited after they've fired 3-4 rounds breech seating! I doubt any rush out and get a gun and tools, but they will happily continue shooting as long as I let them, just because it's such fun!
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by Griff »

MM93,

Did you get any of those from Hank, down in Payson? He's an old friend of mine, and my mentor when I started cowboy action back in the '80s.
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by Sixgun »

Marlinman,
Like Pitchy, your a craftsman . Nice job on the breechseater. I guess patience comes with age and I'm nearing that. :lol: Thanks for a fine and informative post.---6
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by M. M. Wright »

Thanks for the report. Nicely done and congratulations on such a fine rifle. I simply love the fact you have most of guns story worked out. Be sure to print it out and put it somewhere in the case with it. Priceless info.
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Re: Hepburn dilema

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marlinman93
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

Griff wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:47 pm MM93,

Did you get any of those from Hank, down in Payson? He's an old friend of mine, and my mentor when I started cowboy action back in the '80s.
No, never met anyone named Payson. Couple came from Ron Peterson's shop, and others I have came from local shows or the Big Reno show.
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

Thanks for the comments Sixgun, MM Wright and Bill!
I do indeed write down as much info as possible and keep it in my gun safes with the gun's serial number on the envelopes. Have another Ballard that was gifted to an Army Lieutenant named Charles Phillips in 1890. A West Point grad in 1883, and must have been well liked for his troops to give him the Ballard on his promotion to Captain, and subsequent reassignment. Eventually Lt. Phillips spent over 40 years in the Army Artillery and retired as a Brigadier General!

Today at our local OAC collector gun show I picked up another neat old loading tool! Seen pictures of these Ideal #2 re-decapping tools for removing primers and repriming, but never had a chance to look at one or own one! Well today I had the chance to do both, and added the Ideal #2 to my collection too!

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These tools were sold in shooting kits offered by high end target rifle makers like Geo. C. Schoyen, so this tool will be added to my cased Schoyen Ballard! It's an old tool, but works perfectly, and I'll use it a lot, not just admire it!
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Re: Hepburn dilema

Post by marlinman93 »

Here's a fun video Shooting USA did a few years back with John Merz doing the tutorial. It will explain the rifles and breech seating techniques used in shooting this way! About 1:50 into the video is the breech seating portion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_-xGH02JIE
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