Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

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DavidPJ
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Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Hi there, good morning!

I've just joined, after reading the excellent article on the Winchester 1895.

I'm British (like the .303), live in Switzerland, and spend most weekends in France.

31 years ago, on my 21st Birthday, my Godfather gave me his Winchester 1895 in .303 British. He was a Veterinarian, and had inherited the gun when he'd bought his Veterinary Practice decades before. It had been mainly used for putting down horses, and some bigger animals at London Zoo where he occasionally worked. Best Birthday Present ever! No paperwork though.

Anyhow, I now finally have it on my Swiss Permit (which is a whole other story), and have had my local gunsmith look it over and oil it. He fired a couple of test shots and declared it ready to go. I'm a little apprehensive of just loading it with modern .303 Ammo, and would very much appreciate any advice you'd have as to appropriate loads, and any other tests that should be done before taking it to the range.

Thanks to all!
David
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by gamekeeper »

Welcome to the forum....... :D
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Thanks!
It seems to be a friendly place; I'm looking forward to getting some good advice!
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by J Miller »

David,

Welcome to the forum.

Your 1895 Win. in .303 British is one of my holly grail guns. I have wanted one for years but they are not overly common here in the USA.

My first bolt action rifle was a British made No. 4 Mk. 1. which I got when I was a teenager. I've had at least one .303 since then.

Modern made 303 ammo is not loaded to higher pressures than the ammo loaded when your 1895 was made. If anything it's been down loaded a bit. At least American made ammo made to SAAMI specs is. European ammo is loaded to their CIPS specs and some of that is a bit hotter.
However, if the gunsmith has declared the rifle ready to go he is most likely taking that into consideration. Were it mine, I shoot it keeping my eyes open for any signs of trouble. Just like I do with any of my rifles.

Joe
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Thanks Joe,

If you're ever over here you're welcome to come and have a go! When I was 18-19 I used to shoot a lot of .303 at Bisley in old Lee-Enfields, especially at 1000 yards (7.62 for 300) so I'm a bit of a .303 fan I guess.

When I get back tonight I'll take a photo of the box of ammo i got from my gunsmith and post it here along with the specs, see what it looks like..

Thanks again!
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by J Miller »

David,

When I first started shooting 303s I got my ammo from a local military surplus store (Yates Army Navy Surplus) at around 3 to 5 cents a round. I shot up copious quantities of every head stamp from pre-WW I to post WW-II, ball ammo to tracers to AP, incendiary, and some stuff so worn you couldn't tell what it was. Those were the good old days for me. Oh what I'd do with ammo that cheap now?? :mrgreen:

My favorite sport out in the mountains of Arizona was to crank that tall rear sight up and fire tracers at big rocks many hundreds of yards away. I got pretty good at it too. :D

Joe
Last edited by J Miller on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by Old Savage »

Welcome to the forum. Since the 1895 was also made for cartridges at higher pressures it certainly would seem fine at .303 levels. Interesting variant here. Like to see your pics when you get them up.
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by walks with gun »

First off, you are one lucky man. As stated before, modern .303 ammo at least loads produced in the U.S.A are no hotter and mantain the same pressure as loads produced years ago. When in doubt. one could always lash the rifle into a old tire tied down to something that won't move and tie a string to the trigger, if you have a very safe place to do this where the bullet can be caught into a backstop. Or one could get a second opinion from another gunsmith, never a bad idea. I've been loading my old 303's down just a little, 35grs. of 3031 with Hornady's 174gr. bullet at aprox. 2,200 fps. You have a rifle that many of us would be tickled to own.
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

3-5 cents a round?! Bloody hell, and they say I'm lucky?!

I'll take photos of the Ammo and the 1895 tonight, Serial Number too, maybe someone can help tell me how to tell the production year and so on.

Warning- it looks kinda used... my Godfather used to keep it in his shed, then it was in an attic for many years!
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by Old Savage »

Well used guns are highly respected here.
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DavidPJ
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

I realised I actually have some photos on my phone that I took for the Permit-
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

SN-
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by AJMD429 »

Fascinating gun in a great chambering.

I agree with the others on the 'ammo' advice.

I don't know if "reloading" is particularly difficult there versus here (I'd think not, but one never knows). Getting set up with a Lee Turret Press would be my first suggestion, but there are many other brands and they all work well. Lee's "hand press" is even less costly, and portable enough to load rounds at the range a few at a time if that is allowed.

Also - PLEASE sometime post a synopsis of Switzerland's gun laws - we hear so many conflicting reports over here, but it sounds like there are some tough laws there (i.e. we would never have to 'put a gun on our permit' if it was a regular rifle - fully-automatics we do that with, and in some states I think if you carry a handgun concealed you need to have the specific gun 'listed', but other than that our laws are great).

Our laws are so nice that one time I realized I left my normal carry-gun at home, and I had a patient who rescheduled her physical at the last minute, so had enough time at lunch to dart down the street a couple blocks and buy a 'spare' revolver (I'd wanted another of the same one only in stainless for awhile so it was my excuse). The shop had a sale on, and I wound up picking up an extra AR-15 while I was there....! Even in the U.S. there are places where you couldn't do that... :mrgreen:

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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by Sixgun »

David,
You may think that your gun is well used but it's old, but not well used. It still has plenty of "condition". It's a very strong case to say your gun was shot when it needed to be shot, so that means it was stored in the corner for long periods of time and then taken out and used as a tool. The buttstock looks like it has never been off, although I am most probably wrong on that. The screws are unbuggered but after looking again at the pics I see the bottom tang screw is a bit buggered.

Because I notice a fair amount of light rust, my suggestion is to remove the screw (with a proper gunsmith screwdriver) under the forearm and gently drop off the forearm. Then remove the large screw on the tang and remove the butt stock. Don't pull on the gunstock to remove it. Then guns were closely fitted with the wood and with years of oil and other junk you can break parts of the buttstock off by pulling it too hard. After removing the screw, and holding the gun pointing up, tap the receiver with a rubber hammer and it will come off by itself. This is of course, if the stock will simply not come off easily.

Get some 4-O steel wool and soak it with bore cleaner and gently go over the rusty surfaces. I can see the metal is dry and needs this. Add some good quality furniture polish that has mineral oil as the wood looks very dry also. You are not alternating anything......your protecting it from further corrosion.

As for shooting your gun, get yourself a bullet mould that uses a gas check and cast up a mess of bullets. The 303 is an excellent choice for cast bullets with its long neck. Here, in the states, it costs about .15 a round ....for rifle ammo...if you cast your own.

I have several 1895's and two are in 30-40 Krag which get shot regularly with cast bullets. The 30-40 and your .303 are close cousins with near dimensions and power. Good luck------6
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Welcome to the fire, David !

Nice rifle, GREAT Godfather !

You actually don't need to remove the wood to attend the rust issue.

IF you can obtain a wad of Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner ($6USD), the rust will disappear without damage to any original finish on the metal, via dipping the pad in a bit of oil and rubbing the rust away (I've used it several time with excellent results).

Here the manufacturer's website, where the product can be ordered directly from them: http://www.big45metalcleaner.com/

There's also pics of the process, but if you google the product, there are some tutorial videos online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLK3noQx4c


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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by J Miller »

That is a nice 1895. it would satisfy my desires big time ... or one like it :mrgreen: .


Joe
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Here's a photo of the whole gun, and one of the Ammo I have-
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Thanks for the kind comments!
I'm not sure I'm ready for reloading yet, though I'd love to learn one day.
Thanks for the cleaning advice, sounds like I've got done work to do...!
As for Switzerland, I'd be happy to write up what I know, I'll try in the next few days, but the short version is that it's the most Gun friendly country in Europe...
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by J Miller »

David,

I've used that ammo. It's OK, but not what I'd call premium. It's Basically Eastern European made Mk 8Z ball ammo.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

You're quite right Joe, made in Serbia.
It was all they had in stock at the gunsmith, though I'm sure they'll be happy to order me anything you guys recommend!
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by J Miller »

I don't know what brands of ammo are available in Europe but here is the Midway page that shows what they have available.
https://www.midwayusa.com/303-british/br?cid=7533
Of the brands shown, I've shot all but the Hornady ammo. My favorite is the Winchester 180 gr SP. Good ammo, good brass if you choose to reload eventually, and the bullets Winchester uses is a long time proven design.

The 303 ammo I really wish I could get now is the old Canadian made CIL - Dominion - Imperial brand. Excellent ammo all the way around. I shot a bunch of it back in the 60's and 70's and am still using much of the brass today. Sadly they are either out of business or no longer sell to the public.

Ely and Kynoc(?) used to make some really nice hunting ammo so you might see if you local gun guy can check on that.


Ahhhh memories, they do give me a headache :cry:

Joe
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by Sixgun »

Joe,
This can relieve your headache. :D ---6

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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by ollogger »

HI & WELCOME!!

Its a fine looking gun & a bit of cleaning will have great results, when you get to shooting the gun lets see the results!



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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by MrMurphy »

PPU, S&B, as well as Fiocchi should all be available in Switzerland in .303. All shoot fine in my Lee Enfields, the Sellier & Bellot probably the cleanest. The FMJ loads duplicate the British army loading and won't be too hot.

If you can find it there, a Sentry Solutions Tuf Cloth won't hurt the wood and will protect the metal.
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Just emailed my gunsmith asking what they can get.
I've seen Winchester and Fiocchi a few times here, especially in shotgun ammo.

I'll ask them if they've got any old Dominion for you :)
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/

This is a good summary of shooting in German-speaking Switzerland, written by an American.

My experience in French-speaking Switzerland has been different. I have found it very easy to buy guns and ammo (certainly in comparison with UK!) as long as you have a clean "Extrait de Casier Judiciaire" (i.e. no Criminal Record) you can walk in and buy any non semi-auto weapon easily. For semi-autos, revolvers and so on you need to apply for a "Permit d'Aquisition des Armes", which the dealer normally deals with for you, and takes 2-3 weeks the first time. The Dealer or gunsmith informs the Cantonal (not Federal) Authorities of the Serial Number of each arm you buy, and they keep a central record, which is actually very useful when you come to apply for an International Permit to travel around Europe (in my case mainly France. My comments about getting my Winchester "in my Permit" were because it was an unusual case, given that it didn't get bought from a Dealer. However, the gunsmith who did the oiling and test fires just had me sign an "Annonce d'Arme" and he took care of getting it out on my Cantonal list. Probably only really important for "getting it in the system" so I can take it across International Borders.

As for choice of guns, they have everything, and you see ex .57 Swiss Steyr ARs in most gunshops! Switzerland has the highest gun ownership per head in Europe I believe, but an extremely low murder rate. The Swiss respect guns, and shooters, especially as every Swiss man 18-45 still has an army rifle at home after their Military Service (my son will likely be doing that when he's 18/19, he certainly wants to)

The local Gun Club/Range that I've joined (Société de Tir de Versoix) is nothing like the Public Ranges described in the Article, and allows any rifle up to 8mm at 300 metres, has a clay pigeon (Sceet) Trap, and .177 Air Rifle and Small Bore .22 Ranges, as well as a Pistol Range.

I have not yet had the nerve to ask if I can use my Taurus Judge with No.9 .410 at the Sceet Trap...!

They do drink red wine to shoot better though ("calming") but never white! ("enerving")
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by J Miller »

Sixgun wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:37 pm Joe,
This can relieve your headache. :D ---6

Image
Oh ... covet, covet, covet ... :twisted: .
That box actually predates those I shot back in the day. the ones I got were the shiny gold and black boxes with the two 10 pack inserts inside. If I had it it's doubtful I'd ever shoot the ammo inside.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland

Gives a pretty good overview of the laws.
In summary-

30-60% gun ownership

Most liberal in Europe, most like US

No machine guns

Carry Permit not easy, but transport fine, and in practice you see people walking around with military or hunting rifles.
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by hfcable »

NICE rifle ! I have several 1895s and have wanted one in .303...that cartridge is a great match for that rifle. [ my 1895s are a carbine in 30/06, an NRA musket in 30/06, a Russian military Winchester 1895 musket in 7.62 x 54R, a takedown rifle in 35WCF,and a rifle in 405WCF ]

my book says your 1895 was made in 1903


you have a real keeper there.
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by 765x53 »

Congratulations on a terrific old rifle.
Here is a Canadian site with a lot of great information on the .303 British. http://www.303british.com/
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by southfork »

A guy I used to know operated an old time gun store/gunsmith shop in Northern Canada years ago. When he moved to the states 25 or so years ago, he brought several used guns that he had decided to keep for his own. Anyway, as he got older, he got sick and decided to sell some of them. I ended up getting from him a 1895 Winchester in 303 British that he said had been used by an old codger in the Klondike. It had been a meat and "bear medicine" gun. Based on that, I doubt that one would need to worry about an 1895 in 303 Brit having to be pampered.

About that time, I also got a very nice Marlin Ballard from the former Canadian in 44W (44-40). That had also been taken in trade up in Northern Canada.
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Re: Advice please-Winchester 1895 .303 British

Post by DavidPJ »

Thanks!

A .303 from '03 eh! Which book is that? I should ask my kids to get it for me for Christmas!

That .303 Canadian site was very interesting; there's a site that explains the ballistics/compensation of the 303 that makes it so accurate at 900-1000 yards in a Lee-Enfield especially, I'll try to find it and post it.

Bear Medecine in the Klondike! I wonder if mine was ever used on a sick bear by my Godfather at London Zoo... and what else?.. I remember a story about a Giraffe. My Dad had just got back from his MBA at Columbia in the 50s, and he was staying at my Godfather's house. The two batchelors had been out on the town in Black Tie (Tux) and were pretty drunk when my Godfather got called in to deal with a sick giraffe. My Dad went too, and was introduced as Professor Jones, a Professor of Veterinary Science from New York. Every time my Godfather told the Zookeeper something about the diagnosis of the giraffe, he would say "what do you think Professor Jones?", and my Dad would say "I concur" in a bad American accent. I hope the giraffe survived. In our family "I concur" became a way of saying "I'm sure you're right, but I have no idea what you're talking about!"...
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