Just For Argument's Sake....

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Blaine
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Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Blaine »

Let's start one.... 8)

There's something large and dangerous out there on the perimeter. Most of us have an assortment of loaded weapons stashed about so we can repel the Red Hoards at a moment's notice. My choice at the moment would be a couple 45acp., Blackhawk in .357, A J-Frame 38 special, 9mm 1911, 870 Tactical with 00 buck, and a Scout Rifle with a magazine of 10 150gr, and a 94 in 30wcf......Now, it's easy to eliminate all but the 870, and the Scout. I think I'll take the Scout....if it starts to look in my direction with bloodlust, I'd have to wait until about 40 yards with the buckshot. 30 cal to the rescue. It was tough not to grab the 94.... YMMV.....
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by JerryB »

Blaine, when my grandson in Texas built a M4 type AR for me and brought it up I shot it at anything I could see. Out to 200 yards ( that's all at that range and the closest one too only 50 miles.) I could hit anything I saw, they are amazing. BUT I told him that if something like you are talking about comes, the first thing I would reach for would be one of the 94 30wcf carbines. Old cowboys don't like to learn new tricks. The old Mossberg 500 and the rest of the handguns would just which one was close to pick up on the way out the door.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

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Last edited by Ray on Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Buck Elliott »

No need to start an argument.. They pop up quite regularly around here, with minimal provocation..

I was out on the local desert yesterday, drilling rabbit-size targets at will, with my Uberti 1873 Short Rifle, cal, .45 Colt, at 200 yards, give or take..
That rifle, one of my .45 Colt SA revolvers, and possibly the TTN 1878 Colt shotgun clone, should be all I'd have time to use, effectively..
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by FWiedner »

Choice of the 870, a GP100 or the LR-308

LR-308 just to be sure. It's got a 20-round magazine.

:oops:

:lol:
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Trailboss »

Quite a few to choose from so it's not an easy choice but I've decided on my Rossi Model 92 in 480 Ruger. It's got those fancy fiber optic sights that glow brightly and it holds 11 rounds of 380 grain flat point. Doesn't matter what I shoot, it makes a WOMP sound. Makes me chuckle every time.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by GunnyMack »

Armalite AR10 from 1000 into 300 yards, then AR15 into about 50 then Benilli M1 Super 90 with Federal 3" OO SHOULD HANDLE MOST SITUATIONS! G23 on the hip for anyone still squirming! Not that I'm prepared or anything...
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Since I don't feel very threatened unless it's up close & personal, a shotgun has worked for me in an HD situation, but I'd carry a .45ACP 1911 if I'm mobile.

.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Grizz »

my little wood toolbox, you've seen it, has the pt91 with both stock options, the ar15 carbine, the chicom 870 clone with SOFT LEAD 69 CALL BALL AMMO, and the 1911A1 with corresponding ball ammo at the ready.

just need a small trailer for the ammo . . . . :lol:
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Les Staley »

Grizz, I for one would be interested in learning how to load round lead (hard or soft) balls in the 12 ga. Not wanting to de-rail Blaines thread. How about starting a separate thread on it. Thanks. Les
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by mikld »

My first thought for "something large and dangerous" was my new favorite, an M1 Garand. I have several reloads with expanding/hunting type bullets and it would protect me unless the threat was a large, really mad elephant...

I've got a few "short range" defensive toys; 3 .44 Mag revolvers, a restocked/worked over SKS, and an AK74. Any of these would work on 2 legged critters. Of course there's my 9mms, 38s/357s, but "large and dangerous" will prolly keep these in my safe... :roll:
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by piller »

My model 92 Rossi in .480 and my Ruger Super Redhawk in .480 for a matching pair and no need to mess around with different ammo. Sounds as if Buck was thinking along the same lines with his guns in .45 Colt. Considering that .45 Colt is easier to find, it I have been casually looking for a good used levergun in that caliber to go with my Blackhawk. Whatever shoots well and is likely to work without a lot of trouble is probably good enough. The .45 is all you need for anything found where I live.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by guntar »

For something big and mean on this continent, I would have to differentiate between two- and four-legged threats:

Four legged - from 25 yds. and out 375 H&H , from 5 yds out to 100 yds. - M71 in 348 Win. ( I know there is some overlap), point blank to 5 yds. M57 in 41 mag.

Two legged - Long-range - 300 Win., medium range AR15, short range M92 in 45 Colt, in the house M870 12 ga., in the same room M1911 45 ACP

Chances are I would really be stuck with whatever was handy, but these would be ideal in my mind.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by 7.62 Precision »

If I was't worried about ammo supply, my 18" Grendel with a 1-8x optic. I can hit anything I need to in a sniper role, and it runs just like a 5.56 AR at CQB ranges with better terminal performance and better barrier penetration at all ranges.

If i had to worry about ammo supply, mainly, have to get it from the enemy as is usually the case in guerrilla situations, then it would depend on the caliber available, if it were 5.56, then an AR, of course. If 7.62x39, then I would take a vz.58 hands down. 5.45, probably have to be an AK of some type.

But in such a scenario, most any good weapons work fine in the short term to procure the enemies weapons and ammo that you will use long term.

As long as possible, though, the Grendel. It is the perfect cartridge for a rifle that fits almost any role at any moment.


When I was in the military, people used to ask me "what if the UN sent the US military to confiscate guns, could you be successful with all the guys with ARs and stuff?"
My answer was that at that point, I would do no such thing, but even if I were willing, I was most worried about the old guys with their scoped '06s. I could take a squad and clean out every one of them, one at a time, but the attrition rate would be so high it would unsustainable. It would be like trying to take out an army of snipers. It could be done, sure, but at a high price in casualties.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Blaine »

7.62 Precision wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:07 pm If I was't worried about ammo supply, my 18" Grendel with a 1-8x optic. I can hit anything I need to in a sniper role, and it runs just like a 5.56 AR at CQB ranges with better terminal performance and better barrier penetration at all ranges.

If i had to worry about ammo supply, mainly, have to get it from the enemy as is usually the case in guerrilla situations, then it would depend on the caliber available, if it were 5.56, then an AR, of course. If 7.62x39, then I would take a vz.58 hands down. 5.45, probably have to be an AK of some type.

But in such a scenario, most any good weapons work fine in the short term to procure the enemies weapons and ammo that you will use long term.

As long as possible, though, the Grendel. It is the perfect cartridge for a rifle that fits almost any role at any moment.


When I was in the military, people used to ask me "what if the UN sent the US military to confiscate guns, could you be successful with all the guys with ARs and stuff?"
My answer was that at that point, I would do no such thing, but even if I were willing, I was most worried about the old guys with their scoped '06s. I could take a squad and clean out every one of them, one at a time, but the attrition rate would be so high it would unsustainable. It would be like trying to take out an army of snipers. It could be done, sure, but at a high price in casualties.
I also have an older Ruger tang safety -06 and plenty of 180 soft points, but it's in the safe and not at hand to react to an emergency. I think I'd still hold with my Ruger Scout 308 and it's 10 round mags of 150 fmj......
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by 7.62 Precision »

I like the scout rifle, especially if built on a mauser or '03 Springfield and using stripper clips.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Blaine »

7.62 Precision wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:47 pm I like the scout rifle, especially if built on a mauser or '03 Springfield and using stripper clips.
Did you see that Ruger is going to make their GS Scout in 450 Bushmaster? Uff Daaaaa
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Grizz »

7.62,

just for argument's sake, how would defend against the squad of 06 hunters?

let's stipulate that the old guys with the 06's could pick the point of engagement and also be networked to cover each other's location. and let's say they operate in pairs. and let's say there are a lot of them. and let's say they have good coms.

how would you set that up?
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Blaine »

Grizz wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:11 pm 7.62,

just for argument's sake, how would defend against the squad of 06 hunters?

let's stipulate that the old guys with the 06's could pick the point of engagement and also be networked to cover each other's location. and let's say they operate in pairs. and let's say there are a lot of them. and let's say they have good coms.

how would you set that up?
I think we've stretched the original parameters of the OT, but with your addition, it would have to be a sniper war, or the ability to call in arty, or close air support... :D
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Griff »

Grizz wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:11 pmjust for argument's sake, how would defend against the squad of 06 hunters?
let's stipulate that the old guys with the 06's could pick the point of engagement and also be networked to cover each other's location. and let's say they operate in pairs. and let's say there are a lot of them. and let's say they have good coms.
how would you set that up?
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Old Ironsights »

I guess my number one question would be to define the perimeter and whether or no I already have Zones set up.

If my perimeter is over 100 yds, then it's a no brainer... my PTR(HK)-91, one of my 6mag tac-vests, and my 1911, plus established antipersonnel.... err... anti vermin ground traps...

If under 100yds and using my home as concealment, then my 1892.357 and my .410 1895 + 1911 + short sword...
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by AJMD429 »

guntar wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:16 am For something big and mean on this continent, I would have to differentiate between two- and four-legged threats:

Four legged - from 25 yds. and out 375 H&H , from 5 yds out to 100 yds. - M71 in 348 Win. ( I know there is some overlap), point blank to 5 yds. M57 in 41 mag.

Two legged - Long-range - 300 Win., medium range AR15, short range M92 in 45 Colt, in the house M870 12 ga., in the same room M1911 45 ACP

Chances are I would really be stuck with whatever was handy, but these would be ideal in my mind.
Similar answer here -
  • 4-legs =
    • 375 Ruger Alaskan way out (trajectory like a 270 Win but goes 'kerr....THUMP...!')
      500 S&W Big Horn Armory LEVERGUN for closer in (even bigger THUMP)
      44 Mag Redhawks for last-ditch
  • 2-legs =
    • 308 M1A Springfield Scout Squad for 'out there' (think lighter Garand, with fewer parts)
      223 CMMG AR-15 for 'closer and bunches' (fugly but it just plain works to make holes in things; ubiquitous parts and ammo)
      45 ACP Para Ordnance Doublestack for last-ditch
  • Wilderness =
    • 444 Marlin LEVERGUN for biggest stuff
      44 Mag Marlin LEVERGUN for medium stuff
      44 Mag Redhawks for close stuff
    ....and LOTS of .430" bullets, powder, primers, etc.
  • Day-to-day Farmstead =
    • 1898 Mauser in 308 with Williams FP rear sight for 150-300 yards
      357 Mag Rossi 92 with Marbles Bullseye or Ruger 10/22 with Bushnell Holosight for closer things
      45 Colt/ACP Redhawk or AMT 1911 for 'chores'

Doc, would love to see that 1898 in .308 with the Williams mounted.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Grizz wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:11 pm 7.62,

just for argument's sake, how would defend against the squad of 06 hunters?

let's stipulate that the old guys with the 06's could pick the point of engagement and also be networked to cover each other's location. and let's say they operate in pairs. and let's say there are a lot of them. and let's say they have good coms.

how would you set that up?
Well, in the scenario I mentioned, they would be the defenders. If they were attacking, it would be an annoyance, but it not as difficult. In the defense, they would have certain advantages. I know how to deal with them, like dealing with a sniper, but not as hard necessarily, because they would not be trained as snipers to deal with countermeasures. But some certainly would be trained snipers and many more would be former military who had trained in those countermeasures and would know how a squad or platoon or company would react. To be very simple about it, a good way to handle it is to try to fix and maneuver - one element fixes and the other maneuvers on the position. Snipers would also be employed. Basically it is a game of outmaneuvering. But a guy who knows how to hunt and shoot would cause some casualties before he was killed. And that is if they are not networked and don't have good coms. If they have overlapping fields of fire they can cause a lot of damage initially, but if that causes them to feel too secure or be reluctant to give up their positions, that would be their downfall, and they would be more easily defeated. They would need to fire and move immediately.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by OldWin »

7.62 Precision wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:47 pm I like the scout rifle, especially if built on a mauser or '03 Springfield and using stripper clips.

I got an 03A3 (pseudo scout) I built.
Naturally, I agree with you.

Got a GSR like Blaine's too. It's a great all around rifle.

Basically, I would die. I would take too long trying to decide what to use. :D It's the curse of being a "gun guy".
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by 2ndovc »

Depending on where I am, characters may change to suit the environment. When I'm up at my cabin in PA visibility and range is pretty short, about 100 yds. at best. Most likely the Big Nasty is going to be an issue under 30-40 yards. Closer that that it has my attention.
I usually have one or two long guns with me outside of hunting season. Most likely my .450 Marlin Scout style carbine and an M1A Scout.
Short barreled 12 ga. and 1911 or .44 revolver.

At home where the ranges are much longer, M1A Match, Sig MPX for around the house/ yard and various ARs, handguns and shotguns when needed. Oh, and a Sherpa for the ammo!

jb 8)
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by jeepnik »

A long time ago I learned .45 acp good. 5.56 bad, and 7.62 good. So, 1911A1, Springfield Scout Squad.

But mostly I'd like a company of Marine infantry, with the appropriate crew served weapons.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by jcw »

The 870. Maybe the .308 One of the .357s. If things are really big and ugly, and started pounding on the front door I would assume it was the mother in law and just turn a hose on her.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by 7.62 Precision »

I know I get shredded every time for this. But for situation like this, or most defensive situations, I am not big on shotguns. They have some merit as a survival firearm, but I still think there are better. Don't care for them at all for home defense.

There was a time when they were a much better choice than they are today because of the other firearms available at the time. Also, guns were works of art then and took a lot of man-hours to build, and were a much bigger investment then they are today, so a gun that could shoot both shot and round balls, and shoot the balls as well as any contemporary musket, was very valuable addition to a small arsenal of say, two firearms.

Shotguns, because they fire shot, were attractive in the days of slow-loading muzzle-loading or single-shot cartridge guns, since they were more likely to get some projectile into more than one person and often had two barrels instead of one.

But I would consider an AR rifle, a lever-action rifle, or a pump rifle better than a shotgun for close range work, or any rifle better for long-range work. There is a reason LE agencies are abandoning shotguns for patrol rifles.

An AR in 5.56 with the right ammo (Mk 262, for example) is short, light, has almost no recoil, can be adjusted to and easily handled by small, less proficient shooters, easily mounts a reflex optic, points naturally, and is devastating against human targets. Also, bullets like the previously mentioned OTM SMK bullet tend to begin fragmenting in the first layer of drywall, making penetration of a wall and the killing of a person on the other side less likely.

The same cartridge has excellent long-range terminal performance. A shotgun does not.

5.56 ammo is small and light and you can carry a lot. It is also inexpensive.

Here is a comparison of advantages/disadvantages:

AR can be short and light, easily stored, carried, and handled. A shotgun tends to be less compact, usually quite a bit longer, but can range in weight.

An AR with a collapsible stock can be adjusted for shorter-statured shooters. Shotguns tend to be longer in the stock and longer in the barrel.

ARs come ready for quality iron sights and reflex or magnified optics. Mounting good optics can be more difficult on a shotgun.

ARs in 5.56, 6.5 Grendel, .300 BLK, 6.8 SPC, etc. have minimal recoil, easily handled by smaller shooters and easy to control in a CQB-type defensive situation. Shotguns have moderately heavy recoil, increasing time between shots.

In real-world shootings, a good hit from an AR-15 with the right ammo often incapacitates a threat faster than a similar hit with buckshot, even though the buckshot strikes with multiple projectiles.

AR-15s firing the right 5.56 cartridges are safer in the case of penetrating walls than buckshot or slugs tend to be.

AR-15s have the range that a shotgun does not have.

5.56 ammo is lighter and more compact and far more can be carried that shotgun shells.

LE agencies have recognized the clear advantages of ARs over shotguns for CQB use and have been widely replacing shotguns with patrol rifles.

In military use, shotguns are lightly used, and then usually with the main purpose of breaching.

An AR-15 fires a single projectile with devastating terminal performance that can be placed precisely. A shotgun fires a single projectile that is very inappropriate for most CQB or defensive situations, outside of defense against bears, or fires multiple projectiles, each with poor terminal performance, and a higher possibility for one or more of the projectiles to miss the intended target.

Terminal performance of certain 5.56 cartridges is reliable and consistent over a variety of unexpected situational factors. Shotshell performance can vary from awesomely devastating to very disappointing, depending on the circumstances the shot was fired under.

While there are disadvantages to pistol caliber carbines when compared to 5.56, a pistol-caliber lever gun can share many of the advantages an AR holds over a shotgun, and in defensive situations, I would prefer an AR first, but would feel well armed with a light lever gun as well. If ranges were extended, then there are leverguns that fire rifle cartridges that have excellent longer-range performance as well, usually with a cost in slightly higher recoil. Shotguns would be well down on my list.

Use a shotgun to unlock a door. Use a carbine or a rifle for everything else.
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by Lastmohecken »

7.62 Precision wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:27 pm I know I get shredded every time for this. But for situation like this, or most defensive situations, I am not big on shotguns. They have some merit as a survival firearm, but I still think there are better. Don't care for them at all for home defense.





But I would consider an AR rifle, a lever-action rifle, or a pump rifle better than a shotgun for close range work, or any rifle better for long-range work. There is a reason LE agencies are abandoning shotguns for patrol rifles.







Here is a comparison of advantages/disadvantages:

AR can be short and light, easily stored, carried, and handled. A shotgun tends to be less compact, usually quite a bit longer, but can range in weight.

An AR with a collapsible stock can be adjusted for shorter-statured shooters. Shotguns tend to be longer in the stock and longer in the barrel.



ARs in 5.56, 6.5 Grendel, .300 BLK, 6.8 SPC, etc. have minimal recoil, easily handled by smaller shooters and easy to control in a CQB-type defensive situation. Shotguns have moderately heavy recoil, increasing time between shots.

In real-world shootings, a good hit from an AR-15 with the right ammo often incapacitates a threat faster than a similar hit with buckshot, even though the buckshot strikes with multiple projectiles.
I agree with you on lots of points, but at close range, a man with an automatic shotgun and buckshot, scares me more. Probably because I have hunted upland birds, etc with the shotgun a lot, and I have seen what a really not that well trained shooter can still do in a half a second with a shotgun. And in the jungle, at close range, like in some parts of Nam, I would still prefer the shotgun for in some situations, because it can be carried for a long time and still be swung and fired almost by instinct in a mili-second.

I own several AR's and Fal's but for that first close range engagement, at spiting distance, the shotgun is still the one I would hate to face, more. But I would not choose a Pump, it would be semi-auto. And I am not alone in my opinion.

The other thing is you are definitely right when you say the right ammo for an AR, because ball ammo in the AR does not impress me much, actually even Soft points in the AR, has never impressed me, on the living creatures I have shot with the AR. I have shot several animals with the AR, and seen them keep going, that I don't have a lot of confidence with it, as far as terminal ballistics goes, it seems to me like shot placement is very critical, good shot placement takes more time.
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guntar
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Re: Just For Argument's Sake....

Post by guntar »

I am not quite sure how we got into resisting the U.S. military scenario, but I do have one observation on that situation. If an individual tried to take on even a squad of trained infantry, it would be tantamount to committing suicide. Faced with that kind of firepower and backup(drones, artillery, air support, etc.), your only chance would be to run and hide. In that case, I would want a long-range rifle (to buy myself some time to run and hide again), a 22 rimfire pistol (for food), and a LOT of prayer!
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