45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

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JohndeFresno
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45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by JohndeFresno »

I am contemplating some warmer than usual 45 Colt Blackhawk loads. So lately I have spent quite a bit of time studying all sources regarding the maximum safe PSI (SAAMI type pressure expressed in PSI, not the older CUP).

I need the PSI measurement to work within my QuickLoad Ballistic Software, which cuts load development time and expense drastically by using its predictions and then comparing them with known load data - for safety and verification, of course.

It appears that even as of this date, there is no official SAAMI listing for the 45 Colt (Ruger Blackhawk strength) loads; only the 14,000 Max SAAMI PSI listings for the original .45 Colt load.

Various experimenters place the elusive maximum safe limit between 25k and 35k (35,000, folks) maximum PSI pressure. Please be sure that I am not talking about CUP, which has no absolute exact conversion to PSI.

An author who has really espoused high revolver pressure limits, Mr. John Linebaugh, has some interesting things to say. However, one of his writings says that the .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk (or similar) can handle 80% of the pressure of the .44 Magnum. Yet I found another article by him that claims that 85% of the .44 Mag is still okay. I'll take the lower quote.

Reading John Linebaugh's “Gun Notes: The .45 Colt – Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Legend,” I ran across this once again. Note that he was talking about CUP, not PSI:
"The Ruger Blackhawks and Bisley models chambered for .45 Colt are approximately 80% as strong as the same Ruger chambered for .44 magnum. This means we can load the .45 Colt to 80% of the pressure of the .44 Magnum round and still maintain the 100% safety level. 80% of 40,000 is 32,000.

"To check our findings we again turned to H.P White Labs and their findings paralleled ours. Ruger Blackhawks in .45 Colt caliber were destroyed in controlled test conditions at approximately 60,000 CUP pressure levels."


The article went on to explain the testing involved with real ammo to arrive at this conclusion, among other things.

So, using the known SAAMI Maximum PSI figure for the .44 Magnum -
44 Magnum Maximum SAAMI pressure = 36,000 psi.
80% * 36,000 = 28,800 psi. This will be my maximum safe load for the .45 Colt Blackhawk.


As stated, the 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk (and related platform) maximum pressure is not quoted by SAAMI. Maximum quotes are either 25,000 or 30,000 psi.

Leaving out our bold experimenters who can afford to blow up guns and possibly wear kevlar shooting gloves and such, what say you?
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by HawkCreek »

I've never tried hot rodding a .45 Colt but only because I own a Freedom Arms .454 so I dont have loading experience but I'd look for some Brian Pearce articles. He's very knowledgeable about what pressures can be loaded safely in what guns.

Brian Pearce article on three different load levels using the RCBS 270-45 cast bullet:
Please note the table is CUP while the first two are PSI.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/ ... artial.pdf

Same author on loading for a new model Blackhawk, two levels of load data shown:
http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf

I can't offer more than that but most guys that really push the limits of the .45 Colt are doing it in large frame guns with custom 5 shot cylinders that offer a lot more material between chambers.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by GunnyMack »

In my mind the biggest thing you need to worry about is the cyclinders walls. The frames are the same.
Back in 92 or 93 while in Gumsmiff skool, John Gallager was developing Blackwawk 5 shot guns using shortened 348 cases. Don't know the load but using 458 bullets. Anyhow John went out to the test fire chamber, BOOM! He walked in with a blown cyclinder and a parted top strap. Just a bit too much pressure! I have pictures of it somewhere.

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by w30wcf »

John,
Back in 1993, Hodgdon Manual No.26 was the first that I know of to publish loads for the Ruger .45 Colt that exceeded the SAMMI Max by quite a bit. The data even included Hercules, DuPont and Winchester powders at that time.

The data was expressed in CUP and was in the 29,000-30,000 area which apparently Hodgdon through quite a bit of testing, felt was plenty safe in the Ruger. I have used some of those loads in mine with no issues.

The current Hodgdon data on their website has Ruger only data. It would be interesting to plug those loads into your program to see what the estimated PSI would be.

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Increase the charge until she blows and back the charge off a couple 10 th's. :shock:
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by BrianSH »

w30wcf wrote:John,
Back in 1993, Hodgdon Manual No.26 was the first that I know of to publish loads for the Ruger .45 Colt that exceeded the SAMMI Max by quite a bit. The data even included Hercules, DuPont and Winchester powders at that time.

The data was expressed in CUP and was in the 29,000-30,000 area which apparently Hodgdon through quite a bit of testing, felt was plenty safe in the Ruger. I have used some of those loads in mine with no issues.

The current Hodgdon data on their website has Ruger only data. It would be interesting to plug those loads into your program to see what the estimated PSI would be.

w30wcf
The Hodgdon Annual load books have good info too. And those loads will drop most anything on the planet. the Casull level loads aren't needed. Keep in mind the RedHawk is stronger than the Blackhawk.

When I went to my first Linebaugh seminar some years ago in New Bruanfels TX, I was surprised by all the shooters that had throttled back their custom guns. A big chunk of lead at 1000fps dropped big game just as quick as the belchfire loads, with less hand damage. - Brian
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Buck Elliott »

To avoid being called a liar or a madman (again) I'm not going to tell you about my Old Model Super Blackhawk that John Linebaugh and I converted to .45 Colt, or my Original Vaquero (factory chambered for the same cartridge), both of which withstood repeated firings with loads developing 55,000 psi, and pushing 315 grain cast slugs to 1550 fps..

I know you don't want to hear such things, and that several of you may get the drizzles just from reading those words..

So...
No, I'm not going to tell you about them, even though every word is true..
Regards

Buck

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by w30wcf »

I must admit that back in my younger days I pushed the Ruger 45 Colt with loads that I discovered were beyond the Hodgdon data when that handbook came out.

Based on what I know now, I would bet that some of the loads were likely close to 40,000 and even then, the cases almost fell out of the cylinder when extracted. I did reduce to the Hodgdon levels after seeing the data in that handbook.

These days though, I'm having more fun shooting cartridges loaded to levels = to original ballistics...some with black powder too! :D

Buck,
Wow! That's right up there! I can see the Super Blackhawk rebore since it does not have a fluted cylinder. Kind of like the current Ruger Bisley.

As I recall, did John take .44 Magnum Ruger to failure to see how much pesssure it would withstand? I think it was something like 75,000? I think the 20% less for the 45 Colt Ruger was based on testing to destruction which Was the 60,000 that JohnDeFresno mentioned. 30,000 would be a 50% safety factor.

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Buck Elliott
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Buck Elliott »

Tests have shown that a fluted cylinder is every bit as strong as (if not stronger than) an unfluted one..

The weakest spot is still in the area of the bolt notches..

All of the cracked/blown BH/SBH cylinders I've seen show the same failure pattern. (Admittedly, a few were never recovered for inspection..)

All SBH failures I have inspected were caused by too much of the wrong powder, including an overdose of good, ol' 2400..

Down in Utah (decades ago) a pair of brothers were loading for their brace of Supers, when they ran out of 2400. Fogged by an abundance of Jim Beam, they reached for another cannister of propellent, which also bore the HERCULES logo, and finished up their task. When they went to the field, brother A loaded up his six-shooter and touched one off. Everything was fine, so he triggered round 2, only to be thereafter unable to re-cock his piece. A cursory examination revealed that the cylinder was split, and bulged up against the top-strap, which was somewhat bent.. Undeterred, brother B took it upon himself to repeat his sibling's performance, doing identical damage to his own revolver with his first tug on the go switch..

I happened to be in the lgs when the befuddled boys brought in their respective sidearms..

Examination of the revolvers and their remaining loads, along with careful cross-examination of the still hung-over pistoleers discovered that the second can of powder contained Unique, which they loaded to the same volume as the previous #2400, with predictable results..
Last edited by Buck Elliott on Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Buck

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by AJMD429 »

Buck Elliott wrote:. . . . the second can of powder contained Unique, which they loaded to the same volume as the previous #2400, with predictable results. . .
. . . :shock:
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by BrianSH »

Buck Elliott wrote:To avoid being called a liar or a madman (again) I'm not going to tell you about my Old Model Super Blackhawk that John Linebaugh and I converted to .45 Colt, or my Original Vaquero (factory chambered for the same cartridge), both of which withstood repeated firings with loads developing 55,000 psi, and pushing 315 grain cast slugs to 1550 fps..

I know you don't want to hear such things, and that several of you may get the drizzles just from reading those words..

So...
No, I'm not going to tell you about them, even though every word is true..
That was a six shooter converted to a five shooter wasn't it? Larger cylinder installed in an enlarged cylinder window too? - Brian
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by piller »

I have used the Speer and Hodgdon loads for Ruger only pistols. No problems. There are a lot of folks here with more knowledge and experience than I have. 325 grain lead bullets at around 800 fps in my Blackhawk are plenty for my needs.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Buck Elliott »

My OM SBH was rebarreled with a 7 1/2" take-off Ruger BH .45 Colt barrel, and the receiver top-strap was welded, machined and ground to mimic the older Colt SAA, complete with hog wallow rear sight groove..
John then rechambered the original .44 magnum cylinder (6 shot) to .45 Colt.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Mainehunter »

Many moon's ago I did have Clements Custom Guns convert my Ruger Bisley 45LC to a 5 shot. Clements gave a listing of loads to try out, most of them were using a good dose of H110 or W296 firing a 310 LBT bullet close to 1600 f.p.s. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those loads were getting up to or exceeding 55,000 p.s.i. range. I've used a Ransom rest for my load development and even though it was screwed into a 3" sheets of plywood weighing close to 20 lbs. I still had to clamp the thing to the shooting bench to keep from lifting. Mine sported a nice 7.5" octagonal barrel and a oversized, non-fluted cylinder. Unfortunately I sold it to pay off some bills and you know how that goes :| .

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by samsi »

JdeF, I think you're on the right track regarding ideas on pressure for the 45. I've only been playing with the Colt cartridge for about 14 years, with around 30 years of pulling the trigger on various 44 mags. The majority of my Colt loads these days are in the 22-25k range. There's plenty of performance to be had at that level, and they're still enjoyable to shoot. My current favorite load uses the RCBS 45-270SAA bullet at somewhere around 1100 f/s (5 1/2" barrel). The Colt isn't, and doesn't have to be a 44 mag to be effective.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Pete44ru »

.

One precautionary note/caveat to keep in mind, here:

The Ruger New Blackhawk uses a smaller cylinder frame than the standard Blackhawk, and for .45 Colt in particular, should be limited to lower pressures than the standard Blackhawk is loaded to.


.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by JohndeFresno »

Chuck 100 yd wrote:Increase the charge until she blows and back the charge off a couple 10 th's. :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol: !
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by JohndeFresno »

HawkCreek - Thank you for the articles. I also subscribe to these mags and have archived them; but have not seen the articles for a while - things get forgotten. 20k max or no more than 32k, eh?

GunnyMack - Great stuff about the cylinders. I will indeed tread lightly, but see my concern about the Barnes bullets already loaded! That is what sparked this thread, since I have loaded 40, so far, but have not yet tested them!

w30wcf
- Yes, I have noticed that Hodgdon recipes are frequently if not consistently hotter than other manuals. I think it is a great idea to cross reference their higher pressure loads against other manuals and sources. And the CUP figures are fairly meaningless to me unless I can equate them to similar CUP figures of known safer loads, or loads that show CUP and PSI in the same tables. I will check their website again; good advice.

Chuck 100 yd - Thanks for the advice. NOT! :lol:

BrianSH - I am of the same philosophy. I say that because I don't purport to have hunted big game extensively; but it makes sense. These few upper loads that I have listed or already loaded are to have in abeyance for a big game hunt that is getting very unlikely as I age and enjoy more infirmities each year! But I don't want them to blow up if a family member uses my guns. Most of my .45 "Blackhawk Only" loads are actually just a shade over the "Standard" .45 Colt loads - 255-265 gr. lead, 900 fps or so, about 16k PSI.
I have yet to really test a great load at some long distance targets:
280gr. RCBS 45-270-SAA, BHN 11, Unique 8.5gr, COAL 1.65 in. for about 912 fps.
That is an intended hog load, and I still have 401 of these babies on hand. Great load!

Buck Elliott - It is Linebaugh's writings and other anecdotal information that impressed me enough to turn to Ruger for my Colt .45 and .44 Magnum Silhouette (10.5") SA's. Amazing strength. On the other hand... well, let's say I just want them to last for several generations, even if the gubbmint incorrectly thinks that I won't pass them on to my kin! By the way, fascinating follow-up between you and w30wcf - this thread will be archived. Thanks!

Piller - That's a pretty big pill that you use.

Mainehunter - Who knows? Mebbe selling that gun with those loads saved your life!

Samsi - You and I are indeed on the same page. But it is interesting to see what others think!

Pete44ru - Good reminder. I think I will be OK with 28,800 psi. However:

I have loaded up 40 Barnes projectiles for "legal" California hunting (blasted State law requiring all copper bullets).
The load is right out of the Barnes manual, in fact a "Starting" load, Barnes #4, Pg. 470, for the .45 Colt Ruger:
225 gr. Barnes #45120 XPB (Colt +P), COAL 1.588
18.0 gr. AA Nr 9, CCI 300 Lg Pistol Primer
QuickLoad estimate: 1212 fps, 734 ft. lbs. (for my 4.63 in. barrel Convertible)
Starline Brass
QuickLoad sez 83.3% fill, 29,524 psi, 75.32% burn
out of the somewhat short barrel.
Since the load quite possibly exceeds a rather commonly touted standard of 28,800 Max psi for the Colt .45 Ruger, I talked to Ty Hardin at Barnes. He stated that the Barnes recipes operate at less than or equal to 30,000 psi, as with the 20.0 grain max for this load. Although I have some other untried recipes, that is the hottest one that I have actually loaded for this caliber and gun.

Thank you all for the great information. As fun as the .45 Colt is to shoot and enjoy, it seems to be the most mysterious load at its upper end - look at all of the above conflicting information!!

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by 44shooter »

Well there are guys shooting 45 Super in S&W N frames chambered in 45 ACP. These loads are running about 28k psi. The Blackhawk is a lot stronger than any N frame Smith. I would think 30k is plenty safe.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Buck Elliott »

Most of the mystery and confusion surrounding the venerable .45 Colt cartridge stems from the time of its introduction, when Colt's cylinders were made of wrought iron and didn't have even the strength of modern mild steel..

SAAMI, in its infinite wisdom, has always deferred to that ancient metallurgy in its pressure recommendations.. Also, earlier .45 Colt cartridge cases were made to either the folded head or balloon head design, which were both inherently weak designs..
Since the 1950s, .45 Colt cases have been manufactured with the modern, solid head form, and are every bit as tough/strong as .44 magnum cases, but SAAMI still insists on the ancient, outdated restrictions, disregarding scientific improvements in both brass and steel strength and safety.. The SAAMI governing board still treats the old .45 like a red-headed step-child, by perpetuating doubts, fears and faulty conjectures..

Both modern cartridges and improved firearms have long-since put the lie to their overly-mild prescription, which has been safely surpassed by numerous six-gunners - professional and practical alike..
While Elmer Keith became discouraged with blowing up .45s, a young man in Salt Lake City decided to improve on both the cartridge and the gun, and gave us the .454 Casull, which originally employed .45 Colt cases and scary-sounding "triplex" loads, using layered charges of Bullseye, 2400 and Unique to produce amazing velocities.. SAAMI be danged..!
Casull utilized a 5-shot cylinder in order to give his new development an "iron-clad" 100% safety margin for its 65,000 psi chamber pressures, previously unheard-of in revolver ammunition..

Bottom line is, that the ancient .45 Colt, in modern steel guns, will run with the big dogs, and can out-perform most all of them, with less pressure, if you do your part. The large-frame Rugers were made to order for the big .45..

As mentioned above, revolvers have been factory-chambered for the .45 ACP, which runs at 23,000 cup, and doesn't stress the guns in the least..

The sea of ignorance, mis- and dis-information surrounding the .45 Colt parameters could float the pre-Obama Pacific Fleet - battleships and all...

It's a crying shame that SAAMI refuses to acknowledge or recognize .45 Colt +p and +p+ loadings, which could draw back much of the curtain of mystery and black-art that surrounds the cartridge..
Regards

Buck

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by JohndeFresno »

Per my understanding, however - and as listed on Wikipedia for those two above calibers - the cases are structurally strengthened to handle those .45 caliber loads. So to be fair about those earlier experiments, I think that a few test rounds at a very high pressure might not be sustainable as a constant pistol diet.

Thanks again for the comments, gents.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by Buck Elliott »

"Wickipedia.."?
Please...

The only cases that have been "structurally strengthened" are the second-generation .454 cases, with redesigned internal dimensions, to include a heavier case head/thicker web, and the change to the small primer pocket..

.45 Colt cases from Winchester, Federal, Starline and most others feature the same Web design and strength (other than inside diameter) as .44 Mag cases from the same makers.. Same brass formula, same manufacturing process; same strength and toughness.. Attested to by the manufacturers..

The Freedom Arms Casull revolvers are designed and built to withstand a steady diet of max-pressure loads, for a lifetime +. (Some other brands - not so much...)
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Buck

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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by JohndeFresno »

Buck Elliott wrote:"Wickipedia.."?
Please...

The only cases that have been "structurally strengthened" are the second-generation .454 cases, with redesigned internal dimensions, to include a heavier case head/thicker web, and the change to the small primer pocket..

.45 Colt cases from Winchester, Federal, Starline and most others feature the same Web design and strength (other than inside diameter) as .44 Mag cases from the same makers.. Same brass formula, same manufacturing process; same strength and toughness.. Attested to by the manufacturers..

The Freedom Arms Casull revolvers are designed and built to withstand a steady diet of max-pressure loads, for a lifetime +. (Some other brands - not so much...)
This is what I meant to say, Buck, regarding the two calibers, .454 Casull and .45 Super -
.454 Casull cases are strengthened and lengthened versions of the .45 Colt case;
.45 Super cases are stronger than .45 ACP cases:
" the .45 Super cartridge is dimensionally identical with the older .45 ACP round. A notable difference is that it has a thicker case wall than its ACP brethren cartridge, and the Super is loaded to higher pressures..." (Wikipedia)

Now, even Wikipedia, with the proper footnotes, has been shown to get it right on some subjects! I verified separately that the .454 Casull was developed with .451 Detonics brass, and other sources (one shown below) talk about the strengthened brass needed for the .45 Super. Here, the .45 ACP, .460 Rowland, and .45 Super are compared:
"The .45 Super loses about 100-200 fps to the .460. What it gives back is the ability to use standard .45 A.C.P. ammunition. Externally, the case is dimensioned exactly as the standard .45. Internally, it is quite a bit stronger, particularly at the base."
http://www.notpurfect.com/main/45cart.htm

So limited testing and development notwithstanding, the commercially available brass for these powerful loads is strengthened over their .45 Colt and .45 ACP counterparts, making them somewhat safer for sustained firing at higher pressures.

I am not discounting your experience, Buck. Rather, I am hesitant to put my trust on the extreme pressures mentioned for constant use in my handguns over a period of years.

Another thing I love about the "middling" .45 Colt Ruger loads over the .44 Magnum loads and even more powerful ones - lower velocities mean less barrel wear!
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by WoodrowC »

FA475.jpg
FABbl.jpg
This is an early model 83 in .45 colt only. I can approach .454 territory with .45 Colt loads. The 5 shot cylinder allows peppy H-110 loads with hardcast, and would be handy in big bear country.
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Re: 45 Colt Blackhawk Max PSI Question

Post by 44shooter »

Yes, the 45 Super case is stronger than acp cases although they are externally identical. The increase in performance, through velocity only, is by taking increased pressure.

I only mentioned it to show that a weaker gun with a thinner cylinder can take pressures of around 28k.
I have no idea how long it will stay tight with constant use of Super ammo.

I didn't intend to drift the thread. Just illustrate why I think the 45 Colt loads in question are easily reasonable in a Blackhawk, old Vaquero, or Redhawk.

As said above, modern 45 Colt brass is constructed the same as 44, 41, 357 brass. All are about the same length. The brass isn't the weak link any more. It's usually the lack of metal around the chamber that's the limiting factor with the 45s
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