Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Old Ironsights »

Taofledermaus abuses a tomato stake to see if he can get a tube kaboom...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeJmOxIklDc
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
BenT
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: Northern Wisconsin

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by BenT »

Handloader Magazine did a test like this about 10 years ago with the same results.

Ammunition has changed a lot since military tests in the 1880's which gave magazine detonation with the 45-70.
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Old Ironsights »

I suppose that "back in the day" with soft fulminate primers it was/could have been a big deal. But with modern hard primers and the ignition systems to make them work... ???

But like eff said, "ain't gonna do it, even with test data". Still, it's good to know. Means that some of my "special" .357 loads are probably OK in a pinch.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Malamute »

It was interesting, but not definitive.

First point Id raise is military 5.56 ammo has hard primers. It sometimes doesn't light off with light hammer springs, though they weren't getting much if any primer parking.

We do know that there have been magazine detonations with flat point bullets in 1860 Henry type guns when the follower is allowed to slap back down after loading. Its happened several times in cowboy action shooting. May be instances of dropping the rounds in the mag tube detonating also, but not sure. Griff may know more about that.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by J Miller »

Senseless destruction of a shotgun. Non scientific at the best.

They would have done better to actually mount the shot gun in a sled and fire it allowing the inertia of the rearward movement of rounds in the tube to do what ever they were going to do.

Buy shooting the butt of the gun they were shoving it forward, the opposite of the way it would have moved had it been fired.

Senseless waste in my opinion.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31939
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by AJMD429 »

J Miller wrote:Senseless destruction of a shotgun. Non scientific at the best.

They would have done better to actually mount the shot gun in a sled and fire it allowing the inertia of the rearward movement of rounds in the tube to do what ever they were going to do.

Buy shooting the butt of the gun they were shoving it forward, the opposite of the way it would have moved had it been fired.

Senseless waste in my opinion.

Joe
I agree....
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Griff »

Malamute wrote:We do know that there have been magazine detonations with flat point bullets in 1860 Henry type guns when the follower is allowed to slap back down after loading. Its happened several times in cowboy action shooting. May be instances of dropping the rounds in the mag tube detonating also, but not sure. Griff may know more about that.
Yep, both letting the follower slap down, and droppin' cartridges with the magazine at too steep an angle. And it's not the top (last) cartridge that goes off, it's usually several down... due to the weight of the ones on top. Causes the primer to jump in the pocket as near as I've been able to tell. A very good reason why King's Patent loading gate is such an improvement!
Last edited by Griff on Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
buckeyeshooter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by buckeyeshooter »

Faulty test design. The recoil is said to cause detonation, not impact. I notice, they are not using a lever gun and pointy bullets in something like a .308ME or 45/70. Just you tube nonsense in my book, Bubba bored that day!
I don't know if recoil would really detonate a round or not. But, I don't want to chance it and would not want the liability of saying it would not happen.
As said above, I have seen detonations in 1860 Henry's incorrectly loaded or the follower dropped at Cowboy Action Shoots.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by marlinman93 »

I've got more than one issue with their test. First being 5.56 small, hard primers. They should have used large primers, as many lever action calibers use. Then why not just tie a string to the trigger, and pull it with a shotgun round in the chamber to simulate recoil? I also think a full tube allows less shifting, so less impact to the primers. As the tube empties, and the spring lengthens, it allows the ammo to shift more during recoil, so a tube with a full 6-10 rounds will have less shifting than a tube with 2-3 rounds. This happened in the 1881 tests after several rounds were fired, so tube was emptier.
The 1880's tests were using large primers in an 1881 Marlin, when Marlin specified small primers for their 1881 in .45-70. Winchester supplied all ammo for the tests, and it's rumored they supplied large primers to sabotage Marlin, and create the mag tube ignition issue.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
DPris
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by DPris »

It is no myth, and their methodology proves nothing.

Back during Bubbles' CAS days we arrived at a regional in Wyoming the day after an experienced shooter had blown up his levergun magazine, sending him to the hospital for treatment of his arm injuries.

He thought his LEAD bullet noses were sufficiently wide & the recoil levels produced by his competition loads were sufficiently mild, but found out the hard way that they were not.

I didn't talk to him, but did hear about it from people there when it happened.
Denis
User avatar
Rimfire McNutjob
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3144
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sanford, FL.

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

I agree with the above assessments that the tests were flawed. They needed to test with a cartridge with a much higher mass bullet, they needed to test with some nice soft Federal LP primers, and they needed to test with varying numbers of rounds and spring tension. I think what they've done is pretty far from definitive. Still, it was a lever gun positive outcome ... so kudos for the effort.
... I love poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Griff »

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:Still, it was a lever gun positive outcome ... so kudos for the effort.
I am unconvinced of that... If, after watchin' that video, some nimrod takes his .44 Mag levergun with some pointy bullets, thinkin' he's safe, and proceeds to very publicly shreds his arm, that video did us all a great disservice.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
Rimfire McNutjob
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3144
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sanford, FL.

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

I hadn't considered ultra-pointy in large calibers but then I found this jewel. Apparently Lyman mold 429303 is similar.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
... I love poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by J Miller »

They need to use a normal 94 or 336 in 30-30, and load the rounds to normal pressure with military FMJ bullets. Then strap it to a sled and fire it normally with a magazine full. I suspect the only things you'd find would be pieces. But that's the point of using real guns and normally loaded ammo. All these specially prepared test guns and test rounds just add more variables to the equation that make the results questionable.

CAS is like IPSC, the guns are abused and loaded with exotic ammo far from the norm. Stuff happens to them that wouldn't happen to a normal gun. So again, the results are questionable.


Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Malamute »

Or loaded and dropped straight down on the butt on concrete from about 5 feet up.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by earlmck »

I'm quite impressed with their tests and think they are valid. I did my own tests at one time (even posted about it here on Leverguns http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=32111 ) and ultimately concluded you couldn't set off a cartridge in a tubular magazine any way you went about it with any normal bullet or load. But some of these fellers extreme attempts which hit so hard it cracked the stock? Man, I'd have thought that might set off a cartridge in the tube. I'm guessing that the magazine spring cushions it enough.

I do use a few loads which utilize a pointy bullet in 30/30, 35 Rem, and 218 Bee. If I ever shoot with any of you folks I'll be sure to warn you if I'm using one so you can stand well away. Not like I do it a lot because 95% of my shooting is with cast bullets, but if a feller wants a real zinger for reaching a varmint way out there, a 110 spitzer in 30/30 or 50 grain in 218 Bee is hard to beat. My 35 Rems? Well, couple of them just happen to shoot the 180 grain Hornady spitzer better than anything else.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Griff »

earlmck wrote:But some of these fellers extreme attempts which hit so hard it cracked the stock? Man, I'd have thought that might set off a cartridge in the tube. I'm guessing that the magazine spring cushions it enough...
I looked at that closely. I noticed that each shot that cracked or broke the buttstock or the buttplate the steel plate had very small point of contact with the stock. Especially the shot that cracked the heel of the stock. I couldn't quite tell, but I believe that it dimpled the steel right where the point of contact with the stock was. That's putting a great deal of energy in a VERY small area.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by marlinman93 »

I've built up spire point loads to hunt with in a levergun. But I only put two rounds in the gun. One in the chamber, and one in the magazine. So never two in the mag tube. I figured I rarely took a 2nd shot, and never had time for 3 shots. They worked out great using them safely, and I took several deer with them.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
DPris
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by DPris »

In the CAS event I mentioned, if a low-velocity (low-recoil) lead bullet could ignite a primer and blow the magazine, I see no reason why a standard velocity bullet with enough of a point could do the same, IF everything happened to line up just wrong.

Kinda like the empty chamber issue on a Peacemaker.
You MAY not be able to deliberately get a Colt to ignite by dropping it on a loaded chamber, but the laws of chance still apply- drop it just once accidentally & have it land the wrong way, and you get disaster.

Venturino witnessed it kill a man.

In both cases, Peacemaker loaded chamber & levergun pointed bullets, I choose not to give Murphy a chance at me. :)
Denis
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by earlmck »

I love my levers and I love my old pumps and both have tubular magazines. And I'm on the side that doesn't worry about the shape of the bullet that gets loaded (other than -- my 25 and 30 Remingtons don't allow me to use a pointy bullet because the spiral flutes in the Rem 14 cause a jam if you use too pointy a bullet).

But guys, I do think there is a slight danger of a detonation resulting from our tubular magazines. Yep, I strongly suspect that the detonations we have heard of that were blamed on the bullet (even though I have not heard of a pointy bullet ever being used -- they've been flat-nosed in the incidents of which I've heard) happened when the next round in line got fed onto the carrier. That's the one place where you could get a fairly sharp bump; combine that with a high primer (maybe a large rifle primer in a 44 mag or 45 colt or just a primer not quite bottomed good) and maybe a round slightly cattywompus and .... once in a great while.... boomb! Oh yeah, it's only my '92s and Rossis that have a carrier with a shape that could conceivably do this -- I can't see where the Marlin 336 or Rem 14 could do it.

Fellow name of R.W. Ballou did quite an investigation and good write-ups (Rifle #228 for one) showing that even if a round went off in the magazine it wouldn't do anything dramatic. He pretty much convinced me that even if a pointy bullet caused the cartridge ahead to go off it wouldn't really hurt you, other than the embarrassment of cleaning out your shorts afterward.

And the events that I have heard about that were reported as "tube magazine detonations"? These resulted in some nasty injuries. That's why I think the round that did the dirty work went off, not in the tubular magazine, but back in the rifle action when the cartridge slammed onto the carrier. A detonation back in that position, folks, might be a whole different ball game than the tube magazine detonations Mr. Ballou investigated. And would have nothing to do with the shape of the bullet.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
DPris
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by DPris »

In the incident I referred to, the detonation was in the magazine & blew out the mag, injuring the shooters fore-arm.
The rifle, according to a couple people there when it happened, was considered shootable/repairable by replacing the magazine.
No damage to the frame or internals.

That's where I've always heard the detonations occur, out front in the tube, not back partly inside the frame.

Still, it's a matter of personal belief & choice.
If you don't believe there's a risk, you've made your choice. :)
Denis
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by earlmck »

DPris wrote: Still, it's a matter of personal belief & choice.
If you don't believe there's a risk, you've made your choice. :)
Denis
I agree there is some slight degree of risk, but haven't seen evidence that bullet shape is a factor. Do you know what bullet the fellow used in this incident, Denis?

And we recycle this discussion every few years -- here is one from a few years ago http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=45773 .

Our fellow levergunner muskeg13 has some verrry interesting stuff in that particular discussion. You will note that he used a flat-nosed cast bullet (good-sized meplat) in 44 mag, Federal large pistol primer, Unique powder. And he had fairly serious injury to the body, although he repaired the rifle.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
DPris
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by DPris »

I don't know which specific bullet the guy was using, commentary from Kate (wife of SASS #1) & a couple others the day after was just that it was a lead bullet, within SASS-required velocity ranges, and the shooter thought he was OK with it being wide-nosed enough.

Said shooter had re-evaluated his position & would be trying another bullet. :)
Denis
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18566
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Sixgun »

Malamute was spot on with the 1860 Henry discharging when the spring slaps down. I was next to a guy two years ago when that happened. Bulged out the split tube real good even though the load was very light.

These tube thingys blowing up happen with heavy recoiling rifles like 1800 fps loads with a 400 grain bullet and then only rarely. You could probably fire a million rounds of ammo trying to duplicate it.

I made dummy rounds up in 219 Zipper and a 30-30 with only a live primer and left it in the mag tube with another dummy round right behind it with a pointy bullet resting against the primer. I then fired a hundred rounds out of each rifle during the course of an afternoon and at the end of the day there was only a very very slight dimple on the live primer.

People worry too much. Use common sense and enjoy life because brother...it's short.----6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31939
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by AJMD429 »

Just thought I'd add this....https://youtu.be/atnBbYZYl7I

Not your typical pistol-bullets of course, but interesting.

.....then Part II wasn't so successful with some of the attempts, but was still interesting.

https://youtu.be/3GkaNg6S0H4 :lol:
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
M. M. Wright
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Location: Vinita, I.T.

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by M. M. Wright »

Did any of you watch their video where they set off the test with a BB pistol? That one is scary.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Blaine »

I truly thought that Marlins have a little bulge in the mag tube that kept things safe. Yes? No?
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31939
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by AJMD429 »

BlaineG wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:45 pm I truly thought that Marlins have a little bulge in the mag tube that kept things safe. Yes? No?
I thought the bulge was just to allow longer rounds to make the turn into the magazine from the side loading gate.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Blaine »

AJMD429 wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:35 pm
BlaineG wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:45 pm I truly thought that Marlins have a little bulge in the mag tube that kept things safe. Yes? No?
I thought the bulge was just to allow longer rounds to make the turn into the magazine from the side loading gate.
You have a better chance of being right than I do.... :lol: :lol:
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
gundownunder
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: Perth. Western Australia

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by gundownunder »

Kind of reaffirms my thoughts about modern primers.
I have had primers turn in the feed tube in my press, and I have completely mangled them in the press without setting them off. These things are not as delicate as history would have us believe. That doesn't mean I'm gonna rush out and buy a bunch of pointy bullets, but if it was all I had I wouldn't be scared to use them.
Bob
***********************************
You have got to love democracy-
It lets you choose who your dictator is going to be.
***********************************
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by marlinman93 »

Explosions in the mag tube are NOT myths! They are documented, and happened in the 1882 military small arms trials! An 1881 Marlin was submitted for those trials, and was chambered in .45-70 as that was the standard government cartridge then. The 1881 was fired with numerous brands of ammo, but when it got to the standard Lowell ammo it had an explosion in the mag tube on the 2nd shot, with a nearly full magazine. Military inspectors blamed the explosion of faulty ammunition, as Marlin had specified small primer cases, and the Lowell was large primers.
But it's documented in the results of the 1882 trials, and certainly not a myth.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
navajo
Levergunner
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by navajo »

I have been down this road before myself and in the end,
decided it was a moot point....no pun intended.

A few years ago, I had a 7-30 Waters barrel put on a Marlin 336.
I have since reamed it to an Ackley Improved chamber, and lengthened
the action to cycle a 2.65" COAL
It is a very accurate rifle and runs a 115gr JHP made by Speer
in excess of 2700FPS
This bullet is not exactly a FN but close enough.
I clamped a primed case in a vice and took a dummy
round with one of these bullets seated and hit it right
on the primer with a hammer and couldn't get it to
set off. Dented it a little is all.
Ran the bullet up into the case and deformed it after a hit or two and
it was crimped.
I had put on a safety shield and welding gloves doing this
because I was sure it was going to go off.
I tried a PSP as well and It deformed the bullet after one hit.
Then I tried a VMax ballistic tip and got the same result.

Still, I will say this-
There is ltiile to gain from running a spitzer bullet in a traditional
lever gun.
For one thing, The 1st thing you will run into is the bullet will
be too long. For another, there is the question of wheter or not
the bullet you choose is designed to perform at slower velocities
normaly asociated with these calibers.
Lever guns are meant to be close range hunting rifles with
slower moving bullets, with a wide meplat that hits hard and
kills quick.
The exception to this rule is the 338 and 308 Marlin Express.
User avatar
vancelw
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3926
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by vancelw »

navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:07 am Lever guns are meant to be close range hunting rifles with
slower moving bullets, with a wide meplat that hits hard and
kills quick.
The exception to this rule is the 338 and 308 Marlin Express.
Please don't tell my .30-'06, .30-40, or .35 Whelen...
I hate it when they cry. :D
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
Merle
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:40 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Merle »

marlinman93 wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am Explosions in the mag tube are NOT myths! They are documented, and happened in the 1882 military small arms trials! An 1881 Marlin was submitted for those trials, and was chambered in .45-70 as that was the standard government cartridge then. The 1881 was fired with numerous brands of ammo, but when it got to the standard Lowell ammo it had an explosion in the mag tube on the 2nd shot, with a nearly full magazine. Military inspectors blamed the explosion of faulty ammunition, as Marlin had specified small primer cases, and the Lowell was large primers.
But it's documented in the results of the 1882 trials, and certainly not a myth.
OK, it happened in 1882. Does anyone have documentation on more recent problems? Personally, I have never heard of any, but that sure doesn't prove anything. :?:
Merle from PA
navajo
Levergunner
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by navajo »

vancelw wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:34 am
navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:07 am Lever guns are meant to be close range hunting rifles with
slower moving bullets, with a wide meplat that hits hard and
kills quick.
The exception to this rule is the 338 and 308 Marlin Express.
Please don't tell my .30-'06, .30-40, or .35 Whelen...
I hate it when they cry. :D



No offense intended, friend...I'm new here.
I always liked the 35Whelen. I had a chance to own
one and regret that I passed.
I do have several 35Rem's and they are a Boss-Hoss.
I also hunt with a model 71 Browning in 348Win...
hit with athourity is putting it mildly.
I can only imagine how a 35Whelen would be.
User avatar
vancelw
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3926
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by vancelw »

navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:29 pm
No offense intended, friend...I'm new here.
I always liked the 35Whelen. I had a chance to own
one and regret that I passed.
I do have several 35Rem's and they are a Boss-Hoss.
I also hunt with a model 71 Browning in 348Win...
hit with athourity is putting it mildly.
I can only imagine how a 35Whelen would be.
None taken. Glad you got thick skin.
I have 3 rifles in .348. They kick worse than the .35 Whelen, which is a Browning 1895 I converted from. 30-'06. You can, too for $225 plus shipping if you have an '06. Might could with a .270 but those are too pricey to convert.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
navajo
Levergunner
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by navajo »

vancelw wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:00 pm
navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:29 pm
No offense intended, friend...I'm new here.
I always liked the 35Whelen. I had a chance to own
one and regret that I passed.
I do have several 35Rem's and they are a Boss-Hoss.
I also hunt with a model 71 Browning in 348Win...
hit with athourity is putting it mildly.
I can only imagine how a 35Whelen would be.
None taken. Glad you got thick skin.
I have 3 rifles in .348. They kick worse than the .35 Whelen, which is a Browning 1895 I converted from. 30-'06. You can, too for $225 plus shipping if you have an '06. Might could with a .270 but those are too pricey to convert.


What kind of 348 do you have?
I sure like this '71. Its a copy of a 1871 Win (y'all likely know that)
It has a Willaims peep and it fits me like a glove.
It don't kick so bad for me but I am a pretty big guy.
(Big half-breed Navajo lol...)
User avatar
vancelw
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3926
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by vancelw »

navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:04 pm
vancelw wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:00 pm
navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:29 pm
No offense intended, friend...I'm new here.
I always liked the 35Whelen. I had a chance to own
one and regret that I passed.
I do have several 35Rem's and they are a Boss-Hoss.
I also hunt with a model 71 Browning in 348Win...
hit with athourity is putting it mildly.
I can only imagine how a 35Whelen would be.
None taken. Glad you got thick skin.
I have 3 rifles in .348. They kick worse than the .35 Whelen, which is a Browning 1895 I converted from. 30-'06. You can, too for $225 plus shipping if you have an '06. Might could with a .270 but those are too pricey to convert.


What kind of 348 do you have?
I sure like this '71. Its a copy of a 1871 Win (y'all likely know that)
It has a Willaims peep and it fits me like a glove.
It don't kick so bad for me but I am a pretty big guy.
(Big half-breed Navajo lol...)
No no no no. The Browning 71 is a reproduction of the Winchester model 71 (not 1871) that came out in 1936, basically a slicked up 1886 action with newer metals.
I have a high grade browning rifle
a normal grade Browning short rifle
and a Winchester Deluxe made in 1938. Looking for a vintage receiver sight to put on it or may make one to go where the bolt peep should go . I don't think mine ever had a bolt peep as some Deluxes did

.348 does not kick too bad, especially from standing position. But I think you will find that, for the same weight bullet, it will kick very slightly more than a .35 Whelen rifle of the same weight.Maybe 5% which is negligible. I always shoot 250 gr in my Whelen and mostly shoot 220 gr in my 348s and they seem pretty equal. Either one will thump the snot out of a hog or mule deer.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by marlinman93 »

Merle wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:17 pm
marlinman93 wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am Explosions in the mag tube are NOT myths! They are documented, and happened in the 1882 military small arms trials! An 1881 Marlin was submitted for those trials, and was chambered in .45-70 as that was the standard government cartridge then. The 1881 was fired with numerous brands of ammo, but when it got to the standard Lowell ammo it had an explosion in the mag tube on the 2nd shot, with a nearly full magazine. Military inspectors blamed the explosion of faulty ammunition, as Marlin had specified small primer cases, and the Lowell was large primers.
But it's documented in the results of the 1882 trials, and certainly not a myth.
OK, it happened in 1882. Does anyone have documentation on more recent problems? Personally, I have never heard of any, but that sure doesn't prove anything. :?:
I really don't see the point here. If it happened, and is documented, then why is it even being questioned? If it hasn't happened again, is it OK now? Would anyone decide they'll chance their safety or their gun on it, just because they haven't seen it happen recently?
Seems like something I don't care to chance, regardless of how long it's been. I love my guns and my own safety too much to waste my time trying pointy bullets, when the benefits are miniscule anyway.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Merle
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:40 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by Merle »

marlinman93 wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:14 am
Merle wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:17 pm
marlinman93 wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am Explosions in the mag tube are NOT myths! They are documented, and happened in the 1882 military small arms trials! An 1881 Marlin was submitted for those trials, and was chambered in .45-70 as that was the standard government cartridge then. The 1881 was fired with numerous brands of ammo, but when it got to the standard Lowell ammo it had an explosion in the mag tube on the 2nd shot, with a nearly full magazine. Military inspectors blamed the explosion of faulty ammunition, as Marlin had specified small primer cases, and the Lowell was large primers.
But it's documented in the results of the 1882 trials, and certainly not a myth.
OK, it happened in 1882. Does anyone have documentation on more recent problems? Personally, I have never heard of any, but that sure doesn't prove anything. :?:
I really don't see the point here. If it happened, and is documented, then why is it even being questioned? If it hasn't happened again, is it OK now? Would anyone decide they'll chance their safety or their gun on it, just because they haven't seen it happen recently?
Seems like something I don't care to chance, regardless of how long it's been. I love my guns and my own safety too much to waste my time trying pointy bullets, when the benefits are miniscule anyway.
The point is today's primers are a lot less touchy than 1882. That still doesn't make it a great idea, but I have to wonder just how common an occurrence this is.

Sort of like the urban legend that using handloads in a defensive shooting will get you convicted. So far I found one documented case, and two probables.
Merle from PA
navajo
Levergunner
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:02 pm

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by navajo »

vancelw wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:44 pm
navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:04 pm
vancelw wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:00 pm
navajo wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:29 pm
No offense intended, friend...I'm new here.
I always liked the 35Whelen. I had a chance to own
one and regret that I passed.
I do have several 35Rem's and they are a Boss-Hoss.
I also hunt with a model 71 Browning in 348Win...
hit with athourity is putting it mildly.
I can only imagine how a 35Whelen would be.
None taken. Glad you got thick skin.
I have 3 rifles in .348. They kick worse than the .35 Whelen, which is a Browning 1895 I converted from. 30-'06. You can, too for $225 plus shipping if you have an '06. Might could with a .270 but those are too pricey to convert.


What kind of 348 do you have?
I sure like this '71. Its a copy of a 1871 Win (y'all likely know that)
It has a Willaims peep and it fits me like a glove.
It don't kick so bad for me but I am a pretty big guy.
(Big half-breed Navajo lol...)
No no no no. The Browning 71 is a reproduction of the Winchester model 71 (not 1871) that came out in 1936, basically a slicked up 1886 action with newer metals.
I have a high grade browning rifle
a normal grade Browning short rifle
and a Winchester Deluxe made in 1938. Looking for a vintage receiver sight to put on it or may make one to go where the bolt peep should go . I don't think mine ever had a bolt peep as some Deluxes did

.348 does not kick too bad, especially from standing position. But I think you will find that, for the same weight bullet, it will kick very slightly more than a .35 Whelen rifle of the same weight.Maybe 5% which is negligible. I always shoot 250 gr in my Whelen and mostly shoot 220 gr in my 348s and they seem pretty equal. Either one will thump the snot out of a hog or mule deer.


You got some nice rifles, Man.
Yep, 348 will sure-nuff put it on 'em.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Pointy Bullets in Leverguns... Myth Busted?

Post by marlinman93 »

Merle wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:52 am

Sort of like the urban legend that using handloads in a defensive shooting will get you convicted. So far I found one documented case, and two probables.
never heard that myth. But it is likely it can be used against you in a civil suit by the dirtbag's family after the shooting. Every expert I've ever talked to or read has said you'll likely be sued after having to use your carry gun to defend yourself. They also said that even mild target handloads will be used by the plaintiff's attorney to try and make it look like you built "special loads" just for killing.
It's a simple thing to always carry factory ammo that you had nothing to do with building. And another case of why push your luck, when it's simple to avoid the whole issue?
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Post Reply