348 wcf sticking problem

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
jjh501
Levergunner
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:08 pm

348 wcf sticking problem

Post by jjh501 »

Hi. I am new to this site but have been collecting and shooting leverguns for longtime. I recently purchased a 71 deluxe that will occasionally have a cartridge stick after firing. I'm shooting new Winchester ammo. I Have cleaned the chamber and don't think that
is the problem. Any suggestions? Thanks.
1886
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2835
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:18 pm

Post by 1886 »

I have a B -71 that will occassionally give me sticky extraction with some of my warmer, not hot, reloads. This is purely a function of case design. The design of the case aids in smooth feeding but also leads to sticky extraction. The improved case design will eliminate this bug- a- boo but I would not alter an original Win. 71. You may have a slightly rough chamber. Chambers are easy to polish for any smith worth his salt and does not detract from your rifle's collector value. Regards. 1886.
Gun Smith
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:24 am

Post by Gun Smith »

One of the problems Winchester tackled when designing the M.71 was to try to eliminate sticking cases found in some M. 86's, especially in the higher pressure calibers. This is one of the reasons for the large taper in the 348. But solving that problem created more bolt thrust in the new gun as the 348 was a fairly stout load for the old rear locking lug design. Of course the steel was much better in the M. 71 over the earlier M.86 and handles the 348 OK. Actually ALL cases "stick" (expand) to the chamber at the instant of firing, and then shrink back an instant later. This allowes the pressures developed to be spread over a large surface, as opposed to just the bolt face. I've oftened wondered if whoever came up with the idea of brass cartridge cases knew this was a trait of copper and took advantage of it.
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Post by piller »

Gun Smith, I don't doubt that the inventor knew that. Most of the people I have known who were in the business of working with metals knew a lot about the proberties of their material, enough to impress most engineers.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
1886
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2835
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:18 pm

Post by 1886 »

You may also consider the possibility that your factory ammo may have been assembled with soft brass. At firing the pressure causes the brass to expand to fill the chamber fully. If the brass is too soft it may not contract sufficiently to allow easy extraction. I have had this happen with Norma brass in a .416 Rigby. Regards. 1886.
jjh501
Levergunner
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:08 pm

Post by jjh501 »

Thanks for the info. I'll have a gunsmith polish the chamber and see if this corrects the problem.
Leverluver
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: WY

Post by Leverluver »

A couple of friends of mine have had similar experiences with some of the factory ammo in the "commerative" boxes. I don't know whether it is soft brass or the load. I do know that the Brownings will generate more pressure than an original 71 (I have both) due to the absense of any throat in the Browning. The bullet is much closer, if not in fact nearly contacting the rifling lands. There are several bullets that need to be loaded to a shorter OAL to hold pressures down and there are even some commercially cast bullets that will not work at all in the short throat Browning.
Idiot
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 767
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Southwest USA

Post by Idiot »

1886 wrote:I have a B -71 that will occassionally give me sticky extraction with some of my warmer, not hot, reloads. This is purely a function of case design. The design of the case aids in smooth feeding but also leads to sticky extraction. The improved case design will eliminate this bug- a- boo but I would not alter an original Win. 71. You may have a slightly rough chamber. Chambers are easy to polish for any smith worth his salt and does not detract from your rifle's collector value. Regards. 1886.
1886, I'm missing something here. The 348 Winchester case should feed and extract easy because of case design. The long gradual taper of the case not only leads to good feeding, but loses contact with the chamber with less rear movement than any case with less taper. An "Improved" case, or straight walled case, will have more bearing surface after bouncing back from pressure than the steeply sloping 348 case. I think. If I'm wrong, please explain the premise behind your conclusion.

The 348 Winchester case was specifically designed to not only feed well, but to also extract well. It was designed to use on big game, including dangerous game, with complete reliability at the forefront. To have put in a design flaw as egregious as that mentioned would have not only wrecked its reason for existence, but would relegated it to near the top of cartridge design failures. I don't think any of this occurred. The 348 Winchester, along with the rifle it's fired in, is designed by hunters as a pure hunting rifle and is truly a marvel of engineering.

I suspect the chamber needs polishing. Or, perhaps the chamber should be checked to ensure it is not too generous. When a chamber is a little too big, brass expands beyond the point of complete reciprocation. The result is a sticky case.

The other thing might be the ammo itself. A lot of 348 Winchester ammo is old and has bounced around the country under a lot of undesirable conditions; resulting in slight changes in how the powder burns. This can contribute to higher, or lower, than normal pressures. And too much pressure will result in sticky cases. I also find that some ammo that's been knocked around a bit (chambered, extracted, repeat) tends to loose it crimp, which can affect its overall length, which can also affect chamber pressures.

My bottom line, before I'd even imagine blaming such a well thought out and near perfectly designed cartridge case as the cause of sticky extraction, I'd look elsewhere.
1886
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2835
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:18 pm

Post by 1886 »

I have spoken with Mic many times concerning this very topic because I too have experienced sticky extraction with some what mild pressure loads. I sent my rifle to him, a B 71, thinking the chamber might need a little polishing. The chamber was fine as Mic had suspected. Think of the .348 case design as a wedge. I know it seems logical that a case design that promotes slick feeding would also be a design conducive to slick extraction but this thinking is erroneous. Because of the gently sloping shoulder and body taper, the case acts as a wedge in the chamber. I was not knocking the rifle or the cartridge but extraction issues in the 71 are well known. Pressures are purposely held somewhat conservative in the 71 for this very reason. In addition I would also refer you to Ackley's writtings on the design of the .348. Regards. 1886.
Idiot
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 767
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Southwest USA

Huh?

Post by Idiot »

1886, I'm going to contact you off the board on this issue. I simply does not make sense to me; so much for taper fit frontend parts. And BTW, I've never had a problem with sticky spents in my M71.
River boat
Levergunner
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:46 pm

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by River boat »

With the Ackley Improved, there is almost no bolt thrust. Therefore, when the cartridge fires, it expands and locks into the chamber wall. This prevents the brass from sliding back against the bolt face.

In the original chamber , when the firing pin hits the primer it forces the brass forward a slight amount, the brass expands but being wedge shaped the pressure forces it back against the bolt face, as it moves back , brass is sort of sanded from the cartridge .

If you look at the primer, you can see where the ejector surround, marked the primer.

Cleaning with a brass brush will help but too much polish
Will increase bolt thrust.
65bee
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by 65bee »

Your gun is old enough so it may have been fired with the old 250 grain Silvertip factory loads which were over-loaded by the factory and caused 'swelled' chambers on some rifles. This is one of the reasons that Winchester discontinued that loading. It was HOT! I think I would take a few micrometer readings on your fired brass just above the base and compare it to specifications in the reloading manuals. I once fired a handful of those old 250 grainers in a M-71 I had and they were rip-roaring, and I am not recoil sensitive. On my rifle they caused the lever to pop open also. They actually shot very accurately, but I never again attempted to ever fire anymore of them.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18563
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by Sixgun »

I have a fair amount of experience with both the 348 and the 33 Winchester. I've owned 4 .348's and still have two of them....all pre-war and never have I experienced sticky extraction.......and this is with 3-5K rounds. I also load my ammo a few grains under max with no powders faster than 4895.

With the .33 I have experienced sticky extraction with 3 different rifles and every time it was by using faster powders like 3031. Once I changed to 4895 or 4350 those problems went away. I currently shoot about 1.5 K a year with silhouette competition in the 348 but loads are low pressure with cast.

What Idiot says makes a lot of sense....because of the design, you would think that it would take very little to "break the bind" but I'm no engineer. I do remember having lots of issues with a Model 53 Smith in .22 Jet which is also a similar design. I did everything I was supposed to do to keep the cartridge from having setback/hard extraction, but still got it. I had to go to light loads that matched the .22 mag so I sold it.
Model A Uzi’s
Image
flatnose
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:24 pm

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by flatnose »

How often is the brass sticking? I have a browning 71 and never had a problem with handloads.
User avatar
vancelw
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3926
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by vancelw »

I don't think he's going to answer unless he's been hanging around for 9 years.... :D
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
Levergun 60
Levergunner
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:54 am

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by Levergun 60 »

My Browning 71 rifle has to be loaded with 50 grs. of IMR 4350 using 200 gr. ftx's or the cases will stick. The throat is'nt short, Jaimison brass is used and I've heard it's thicker the Winchester. My high grade gun was the same way the current Browning is a standard grade. I tried 58 grs. ( which is not a max load and it would stick every time). Any feedback would be great on this issue!
User avatar
gamekeeper
Spambot Zapper
Posts: 17322
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Over the pond unfortunately.

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by gamekeeper »

Levergun 60 wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 2:37 pm My Browning 71 rifle has to be loaded with 50 grs. of IMR 4350 using 200 gr. ftx's or the cases will stick. The throat is'nt short, Jaimison brass is used and I've heard it's thicker the Winchester. My high grade gun was the same way the current Browning is a standard grade. I tried 58 grs. ( which is not a max load and it would stick every time). Any feedback would be great on this issue!
Welcome to the fire..... :D
If more men loved and cherished their wives as much as I love bacon the world would be a much better place.
Levergun 60
Levergunner
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:54 am

Re: 348 wcf sticking problem

Post by Levergun 60 »

Thanks gamekeeper there's nothin like those old leverguns! Just picked up a standard grade Browning 86 rifle in 45-70 new in the box can't wait to bark a few rounds through it!
Post Reply