CCW vs.Body Armor

[mikld]

A few threads about concealed carry got me thinking. I know it would be rare and prolly not a mugging situation, but some bad guys have been wearing body armor when they shoot up a mall or school. I don't think a .38 Special or a 9mm, and certainly not a 380 would have any effect on a vest (mebbe not a 45 ACP nor .44 Special either). So, would a 357 Mag. in a short barrel penetrate enough to render a vest useless? .38 Super? 357 Sig? What other caliber in a small frame gun personal carry gun be effective? I know, take a head shot, but I'm just asking about center of mass shots in a stressful situation.

[TedH]

Those are all the rounds that vests are designed to defeat. Take a head shot, or get a rifle on the scene.

[Old Ironsights]

Hip, Hip, Head.

Broken hips/femurs make movement hard...

[Malamute]

Velocity is what helps defeat armor, though most common rounds aren't quite fast enough to defeat it. Fort a rare event like that, I'd focus more on the best regular type loads, and deal with it by shot placement if it becomes an issue. Very pointy/small front area bullets also help poke holes in armor, but are among the least effective loads for general terminal performance. There used to be metal penetrating loads on the market for 357 mag, they were a pointy cone shaped nose with heavy normal jacket material and lead core. I'd bet they probably would go through armor, but would be pretty poor terminal performance.

Hip shots may, or may not work. Pelvic shots may have a certain following, though they may, or may not work. The information I've seen (first hand or department experience) indicates pelvic shots aren't a very reliable incapacitating shot, no more so than anything else, and less so than some other shots. The theory sounds good, but in actual use, it doesn't seem to work that well.

Any shot that can poke holes in them is an improvement over just hitting a vest though. Id be trying for a head shot before anything else unless an opportunity presented itself to poke them in another spot.

[7.62 Precision]

Hip, Hip, Head.

Broken hips/femurs make movement hard...

Head shots and pelvic shots. Head is most effective, pelvis is easier to hit. Range can determine the best shot to take. Pelvis shots can kill very quickly, especially if taken with a rifle, since there is a lot of blood moving in that region, and a rifle does more damage. With a pistol, expect to shoot more rounds if body armor is involved - a couple shots may let you know that the threat might have body armor, you might miss a few head shots, it might take a few extra pelvic shots, etc.

There are also shots that can be taken in the shoulder/armpit areas, but this is generally not a consideration with a pistol - it is reserved for sniping/marksman-type shooting with a rifle.

[MrMurphy]

Any current body armor (even stuff from 10 years ago) will stop anything you listed except under rare circumstances or a particular bullet type at very close range. I wear a vest every day, so I keep up on that sort of thing.


Train for accurate head shots......nothing else is guaranteed. And even headshots can fail, as one SWAT team member found out when he shot a hostage taker with an MP5 in the head and the round bounced off the guy's skull (they swarmed him and kept his family alive, but I bet he was a bit shocked).

[Sixgun]

Shoulder shots are worthless. I personally watched at least a dozen episodes of "Gunsmoke" where Matt Dillon was shot in the shoulder and the next scene he is fine with his arm in a sling.

On a serious note, it will be a million to one that you are even ever in a gunfight and twenty million to one that the bad guy will have a vest on. As a civilian, some things in life are not worth thinking about.-----6

[7.62 Precision]

Shoulder shots are worthless. I personally watched at least a dozen episodes of "Gunsmoke" where Matt Dillon was shot in the shoulder and the next scene he is fine with his arm in a sling.

Yep! Better to shoot the pistol out go his hand. It won't kill him, but it will cause him to stand stupidly with his fingers splayed awkwardly while he grips his wrist with his other hand.
This is done only by shooting from the hip. That's what Ironsights meant when he said "hip." He wasn't taking about bell bottoms and weed.

[JohndeFresno]

It seems that peace officer range training changes with the wind. However, a few times in the last 40 plus years, various agencies have encouraged 2 quick shots to the torso*, (pause for aggressor to stop), and 1 to the head. That is what I subscribe to, and train my family to do.

Anything besides a large torso is more difficult to hit in a real, moving scenario. And vest or not, unless a heavy ceramic vest is worn, the hits will sting, most likely slowing the assailant's actions momentarily for a head shot. Head armor is not the choice of everyday thugs, at least not yet.

* Center of body, called "Center mass" in police training

[765x53]

A .22 through the pupal always trumps a .45 to the torso.

[Old Ironsights]

A .22 through the pupal always trumps a .45 to the torso.

Or, as Cheech & Chong once said...

Earache My Eye!

[jazman]

A .22 through the pupal always trumps a .45 to the torso.

Or, as Cheech & Chong once said...

Earache My Eye!

See, he WAS talking about bell bottoms and weed!

[rjohns94]

Shoot low and still be center of mass. Those vests don't cover much below the waste. A shot south of the navel would be my first choice then a head shot. I carry a 5 shot exclusively now and the laser grips give me the confidence those five shots will hit the mark out to 20 or so yards. Practice shows that is true.

[Tycer]

A course I took recently taught us to stitch upwards. Start at the sternum and work up. I've seen two people whose vests stopped 9mm rounds. Both had deep, deep bruising. Both said only their training kept them from totally freezing up. How many BGs will have that training?

[MrMurphy]

Bad guys have often been shot previously. Sometimes multiple times. They know what to expect.

The rapper '50 cent' was shot about 5 times (seperate incidents) I think before he was famous.

In a case I was personally present for (media, at the time) one particularly well known local scumbag finally ended up a chalk outline after being shot, if I recall, 8 seperate times, often with multiple hits per incident. Most of the other ghetto types were loading FMJ because it's cheap, and not aiming overly well, so most of his hits were peripherals (legs, arms, non-fatal chest hits).

Apparently the 8th shooter was either a better shot, or got close and made sure the shootee stayed shot. That was 13 years ago so I'm a bit fuzzy on it now. I'd been present for at least two of his previous incidents where he ended up in jail after being left lying there bleeding, etc.


Aim for the head, shoot till the target goes down is about the best you can do.

[JohndeFresno]

Oh, boy. In looking over these posts, we either have advice from some extreme, Navy SEAL type sharpshooters in current training, or mebbe some folks who don't totally get the difference between shooting at an indoor range and shooting to defend your life.

Try this - I have upon several occasions.

Grab a full sized man profile target - like the standard FBI type. If you plan to just knock the gun out of the bad guy's hand like the Lone Ranger, then draw a circle on the target about the same location of an arm sticking out. Use the same approximate shape, and size to mark where you think you can hit it. (I never did that).

Otherwise, aim for the exact spot where you think you can hit a live, threatening, moving target while the adrenaline pumps through you, your hands are perhaps shaking, your fine muscle coordination is deteriorating, and you are acquiring tunnel vision. That is what happens in a life threatening situation, and it can be minimized with intensive training and practice. Buck fever on steroids, since a buck never shoots back. A dangerous game hunter knows the effects described.

Next, put up a barrier - cardboard will do - so that you can only peek around it quickly to take that shot, which simulates your shooting at a moving target. A moving target would actually be best (I've done that, too).

OK - now if you are in current shape to do this, do ten pushups or otherwise work up your cardiovascular system so that it simulates the adrenaline rush, increased heart rate, and so on. Immediately stand behind the cardboard, then jump to a position where you can briefly see the target and shoot. This, too, is an exercise used by various police and military agencies; I was obliged to do this upon a few occasions as a refresher of how much much stress affects your false perceptions of being a sharpshooter when it counts.

If you can hit those narrow areas as depicted above, then I would think that you don't need any combat advice, anyway.

But if you are like most of us (me included, in my prime who qualified at least quarterly for three dozen years with a handgun), you will be happy to follow the advice of most police rangemasters. Shoot to center mass and you will probably hit something significant. And as noted in a post above, your handgun round has enough energy that it will still stun or even injure an assailant with any type of vest that you are likely encounter on a civilian adversary, long enough to slow down and take that third shot. Check posts about peace officers who sustained painful bruises, some to their hearts, after their vest stopped an otherwise fatal handgun bullet. The third shot or follow-ups can be applied to a smaller, unprotected target like the head if they don't stop - if your life is still threatened. Otherwise, it is an assassination, frowned upon by juries (I am told).

Oh, and try this at the mere distance of 15 yards. Remember that you have to snap shoot, not pull back the hammer, breathe, double check the sights, and squeeze slowly!

This simple little practice will make a believer out of you, unless you are John Wesley Hardin (one of the most accurate pistoleros of the Old West, but who used a mild shooting .38 to do so).

Just remember, finally, that if you have a target standing still, then there is most likely no threat or justification to shoot, anyway, unless he has a gun. In that case, YOU will be moving to get out of his sights. Which brings us back to the scenario.

[7.62 Precision]

The stuff about shooting pistols out of hands was intended as humor.

[JohndeFresno]

The stuff about shooting pistols out of hands was intended as humor.

With your post, Seven-Six, I get it. With one or two other posts here, I think they might have meant it!

But in a more serious vein, if you will forgive me this tone, I think that the most appropriate advice is to train small (as opposed to training for head shots).

Aim small, miss small. Some folks may think that if they train to shoot at the head, that they will actually be prepared to take down a bad guy. Having been in a shootout myself (in which my best friend and partner was killed), I remember trying to take out a moving head appearing above a barricade at a short distance, in fact. It doesn't work unless, as I said, one is the best sharpshooter in the business, and frankly with better nerves than mine. A shotgun finally ended the fray.

The bit about the adrenaline, the difficulty in keeping the handgun from shaking, the tunnel vision - I know about this first hand. Then, there was Viet Nam, but a long gun was much more easy to control.

So every time I see this subject brought up, you can understand how serious it is to me that we advise the general public as carefully as possible in the methods that they should prepare themselves, should the unthinkable occur.

Having said all of that, I certainly agree with your excellent advice about peripheral shots into softer areas if that is possible. But the first shots are critical, so I would opt to try to hit the center mass first - the dead center of the target - with my first rounds in a life and death struggle.

[Old Ironsights]

Oh, boy. In looking over these posts, we either have advice from some extreme, Navy SEAL type sharpshooters in current training, or mebbe some folks who don't totally get the difference between shooting at an indoor range and shooting to defend your life.

Try this - I have upon several occasions.

Grab a full sized man profile target - like the standard FBI type. If you plan to just knock the gun out of the bad guy's hand like the Lone Ranger, then draw a circle on the target about the same location of an arm sticking out. Use the same approximate shape, and size to mark where you think you can hit it. (I never did that).

Otherwise, aim for the exact spot where you think you can hit a live, threatening, moving target while the adrenaline pumps through you, your hands are perhaps shaking, your fine muscle coordination is deteriorating, and you are acquiring tunnel vision. That is what happens in a life threatening situation, and it can be minimized with intensive training and practice. Buck fever on steroids, since a buck never shoots back. A dangerous game hunter knows the effects described.

Next, put up a barrier - cardboard will do - so that you can only peek around it quickly to take that shot, which simulates your shooting at a moving target. A moving target would actually be best (I've done that, too).

OK - now if you are in current shape to do this, do ten pushups or otherwise work up your cardiovascular system so that it simulates the adrenaline rush, increased heart rate, and so on. Immediately stand behind the cardboard, then jump to a position where you can briefly see the target and shoot. This, too, is an exercise used by various police and military agencies; I was obliged to do this upon a few occasions as a refresher of how much much stress affects your false perceptions of being a sharpshooter when it counts.

If you can hit those narrow areas as depicted above, then I would think that you don't need any combat advice, anyway.

Excellent advice... But I have, on occasion, "upped the ante" by hitting myself with one of my "expired" Epi-Pens as well.

If that doesn't get the point across, nothing will.

"Hip, Hip, Head" is just an easier menomic than Pelvis, Pelvis Head. YMMV

...Principium sapientiae timor Domini et scientia sanctorum prudentia.
(Prov. 9:10) Corrected from the Vulgate, OI

Don't make me break out my Talmud... (ש״ס)

[MrMurphy]

I train for center mass myself. Both common sense and agency procedures. But to answer his question only a head shot is going to pretty much guarantee a stop. Doesn't mean it's easy to hit or wise to do so much of the time.

[mikld]

I pretty much figgered tha most any handgun round would be defeated by a vest, jest wanted to ask if there were something else out there offered in a handgun that might be effective. When I used to shoot at silhouettes I chose the center of mass, head shots and "belly button" shots (about halfway between naval and di____ ).

Anybody shoot a 5.7x28? That's a fast one @ over 2400 fps at the muzzle...

[JohndeFresno]

I pretty much figgered tha most any handgun round would be defeated by a vest, jest wanted to ask if there were something else out there offered in a handgun that might be effective. When I used to shoot at silhouettes I chose the center of mass, head shots and "belly button" shots (about halfway between naval and di____ ).

In that case, you need to be more specific in your research. Many years ago, I was one of the first peace officers in the Central San Joaquin Valley to purchase and wear the "new" Second Chance vest which revolutionized body armor by making the breakthrough for street officers to wear them, due to their more affordable prices.

A bit later, I did my own tests (also several years ago). Second Chance had just come out with upgrades of various levels, and I think they had just started their optional models with ceramic panels.

A competitor, I think it was Armor America (but lots of time has passed) already had some models that were heavier and bulkier but more effective.

The key to getting an appropriate answer is the tested amount of protection that they offered. A system of "Level 1, ..2, 3" threats was used to describe the increasing levels of protection, and that is the important consideration. A Level 1 vest would not stop what a Level 3 vest did, and so on.

When I tested my Second Chance vest - a newer generation from the original - it did not stop the .357 Magnum Armor Piercing bullet, a pointed metal bullet that is no longer legally available to civilians (at least in California), nor did it stop the "infamous cop killer" green teflon coated KTW bullet in a couple of calibers, or one or two .44 Magnum offerings. It seems to me that it also did not stop the 125 grain high speed .357 magnum bullet, as well; but that was several years ago and my recall is not what it used to be.

Later tests by somebody else showed that certain 10mm rounds were also effective in penetrating certain vests.

It all depends upon which vest one is wearing. There are now undershirt type, lightweight vests that are probably much less effective in stopping the real high power handgun calibers. Then again, vests with the inserts would definitely defeat any handgun threats of the day. So... you won't get a generic safe answer here, unless you know (or somebody here knows) exactly what type of vest(s) is currently and commonly being worn by the bad guys, and which model it is / they are.

Size is not necessarily the indicator, since you can pay more and get more exotic materials that are constantly being developed. I know of a low profile company in Fresno that works on this.

I imagine that our high level government officials have vests that use exotic materials to stop many threats without much of a signature.

[carbluesnake]

Tyler, Texas several years ago, a man attacked the courthouse with an assault rifle. He was wearing body armor. A good samaritan CCW carrier who had at one time operated a shooting range in the city ( i.e. knowledgeable ), shot him numerous times with his .45 auto, ducked behind a car after he was empty, and was shot in the head by the felon. Moral of the story; if nothing happens after several rounds, pick another spot. The pelvic girdle or the head is a good alternative.

[mikld]

I think my question was specific enough for a gun forum querie. I remember asking if any common handgun round, normally used in a CCW weapon, could/would defeat a vest/body armor...

[JohndeFresno]

Whoops - I sense that my post was taken the wrong way. So I offer this answer:
No handgun of any type can defeat at least one of the new (expensive) bullet proof vests, such as the Israeli ApNano:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApNano

[mikld]

Thanks for the straight answer John, I figgered as much. Sorry for the retort, just my 50+ years of living in L.A. type reply...

[1894c]

I train for center mass myself. Both common sense and agency procedures. But to answer his question only a head shot is going to pretty much guarantee a stop. Doesn't mean it's easy to hit or wise to do so much of the time.

+1 ...my LE Agency has us train for the "center-of-mass" (Agency Policy)...we shoot until the target has been neutralized... the last OIS (Officer Involved Shooting) we had at my Agency involved a LE who was ambushed by an individual--the LE returned fire 8 times with their service Glock...it's interesting to note that you can shoot that many rounds in the span of a few seconds with a Glock...the individual who started the hostilities was DRT when I arrived...all 8 shots were "center of mass", training worked... Code-4

[Poohgyrr]

The hip can be pretty strong. Any hunters in here? How do light vs heavy bullets do against strong bones? Accuracy when you've been stalking a wary critter? And so on.