load development for my 32/40

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carbluesnake
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load development for my 32/40

Post by carbluesnake »

Old Winchester 1894 rifle, 26" bbl, made in 1919(I think). I am using Lyman #319247 165 gr. that is weighing in at 159 gr., so they are a little hard. I am shooting as cast with lee alox. I started with 16.5 gr. Rx7 and thought I had something promising. Out of a clean barrel, the first shot keyholed at 25 yds. Then, the next 2 shots went right together, then the next 2 went a couple of inches high of the 2 that were together. The group was perhaps 4" at 25 yards which can be discouraging. The next 5 that I loaded was the same load except .5 gr. lighter (16.0 gr.) and filled the rest of the case within 1/2 inch of the mouth with cream of wheat. The first shot was about 2 inches away from the rest of them that were nestled in 3/4 inch group at 25 yards. I think I am moving in the right direction. What do you think?
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by Griff »

carbluesnake wrote:Old Winchester 1894 rifle, 26" bbl, made in 1919(I think). I am using Lyman #319247 165 gr. that is weighing in at 159 gr., so they are a little hard. I am shooting as cast with lee alox. I started with 16.5 gr. Rx7 and thought I had something promising. Out of a clean barrel, the first shot keyholed at 25 yds. Then, the next 2 shots went right together, then the next 2 went a couple of inches high of the 2 that were together. The group was perhaps 4" at 25 yards which can be discouraging. The next 5 that I loaded was the same load except .5 gr. lighter (16.0 gr.) and filled the rest of the case within 1/2 inch of the mouth with cream of wheat. The first shot was about 2 inches away from the rest of them that were nestled in 3/4 inch group at 25 yards. I think I am moving in the right direction. What do you think?
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earlmck
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by earlmck »

Those plain-base cast bullets don't like to go very fast, usually somewhere between 1400 and 1500 fps is where they loose it. And I'll guess that is just where your loads are putting you, velocity-wise. So yes, it is quite believable that a half-grain reduction in your load made a large improvement and that another half-grain reduction will get you there. And in fact, your 16 grain load may "be there". It is not unusual for the first bullet to go different than the rest of them, especially if your are following some shooting with a load which exceeded your bullet's capabilities and may have left a bit of lead behind.

Your RL-7 loads are giving very low pressures (10 to 11K psi, or low black-powder levels) for these plain-base velocity levels, but may be quite fine. I am a fan of Green Dot and Red Dot for these velocity levels and they don't need any filler to shoot well. And Trail Boss would be great in this application I would expect. For example, 9 grains of Trail Boss would give you an almost full case and 1300 fps velocity at about 25K psi according to "QuickLoad".

But yes, I think you are on the right track, velocity-wise, for getting that bullet to shooting for you.
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wm
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Re: load development for my 32/40

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carbluesnake
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by carbluesnake »

I have tried 7.7gr. Unique and the first 3 went almost in one hole at 25 yds. I put the gun down, checked the target, and fired 2 more. These 2 rds. opened the group to a pattern of 4 inches. I noticed the butt stock has a slight movement, and I am wondering if this has anything to do with the last 2 shots.
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6pt-sika
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by 6pt-sika »

I had a circa 1906 Marlin Model 1893 with a half round half octagon 26" barrel that was chambered in 32-40 . When I got this gun I pretty much went by Venturino's lever action book and loaded 15 grains of XMP5744 with a RCBS 32-170GC bullet . Load shot well for me at 100 yards and did very nicely on a deer or two I shot with it .

Later on I used the same charge with the Lyman 321297 bullet although I never shot at a deer with that bullet .
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by Sixgun »

I don't think your choice of powders, weights, or anything related to your choice of propellant has anything to do with the inaccuracies.

I believe your bullet is undersized. The first shot keyholing out of a clean barrel and then the next few shooting somewhat close (After fouling) tells me the bullet is undersized. The Lyman mould number you have was designed for blackpowder with the first three numbers denoting size.
I currently load for three 32-40's and all like a .322-.323 sizing diameter. Your mould may not throw the bullet the size you need so you either have to hone it out or get another mould.

Also, most every old rifle I have loaded for prefers gas checks....unless you have a perfect bore condition and a perfect crown.....which is seldom seen on old rifles. A gas check makes up for a less than perfect bore condition....most of the time :D ----6
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carbluesnake
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by carbluesnake »

I did not know that the first three digits on a mould had to do with the diameter of bullet it throws. You certainly may have something. Thanks.
carbluesnake
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by carbluesnake »

I measured the bullets from the mould. They are a little oblong, .321 on one side and .3225 on the other. So what do you make of it now?
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Shasta
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by Shasta »

First let me apologize for this long, windy reply, but hopefully you or someone else will find it useful:

You must indeed be moving in the right direction since the accuracy is improving, but I agree with Sixgun in that the bullet you are using is probably the cause of any inaccuracy. Use of a filler over the powder should gain you nearly 200 FPS velocity, so maybe speeding it up is helping, but my experience with the Lyman 319247 bullet has not been good. The fact that your bullet is slightly egg-shaped is not uncommon with cast lead, and I don't worry too much about that.

I too have an old (1907) octagon barreled Winchester 94 rifle in .32-40. The bore on my rifle is excellent and slugs at .3205". I have experimented with the Lyman 319247 bullet cast hard using straight linotype with a weight of 150 grains and sized at .321" (which was the as-cast diameter), as well as softer bullets weighing 160 grains, which also cast at .321" diameter. Experimenting with various powders, I pushed those bullets at velocities from 1,300 FPS to 1,650 FPS. At 50 yards I got 5 shot groups averaging 3 1/2" with definite evidence of instability as the bullets were tipping slightly. The slower loads seemed less prone to show tipping, but accuracy was still not good, so after a lot of effort I concluded that this was not the bullet for my rifle. It just was not big enough to properly fit the bore.

I then borrowed a Lyman 321232 mold which depending on alloy dropped a 170-180 grain bullet at .323" diameter, which I sized at .323". This provided a much better bore fit, but I was very surprised to find that any velocity much over 1,400 FPS caused tipping with this bullet as well. Slowing it down to 1,300 FPS gave good accuracy (1 1/4" group at 50 yards) and no evidence of tipping. I know the bore fit was good, so I suspect the longer nose on this bullet was the cause of instability at higher velocity, but am not sure about that.

Next I bought an RCBS 32-170-FN bullet mold which is a gas check design that weighs around 180 grains after I install a gas check and lube it. I am sizing at .323" and this bullet has never shown any sign of tipping. I've run it as slow as 1,250 FPS and as fast as 1,600 FPS. Best accuracy has been around 1,500 FPS, giving 1" groups at 50 yards. I'm still experimenting and need to do some 100 yard testing, but I know now that I have a good, stable bullet to work with.

I would be very interested to see if you are able to get consistent good groups with the Lyman 319247 in your rifle. Have you slugged your bore? Please do keep us posted on your progress!

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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by Sixgun »

Shasta did a much better job than me in the detailing. Right....some bullets just will not shoot well, but most of them shoot well in the match velocities...1,000 to 1200. Drive them faster and then the law of physics sends them all over the place.

I too, have had my best luck with the RCBS 32 caliber, pushing it regularly from 1000 to 1750 with 20 grains of 5744 on the high end, or if you want to hit beer cans at 200, 6.5 grains of Unique...,.without the gas check. -------------6
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Bruce Scott
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by Bruce Scott »

I have not had much success using cast bullets from my Lyman 319247 mold.

This target was shot last weekend using Hornady 170GR FPs over 18 grains of AR 2207( IMR 4198 equivalent). Without the wayward shot, the group measures 3/4".

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The rifle is a Greener Martini (a 12G shotgun conversion) with Parker-Hale sight.
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carbluesnake
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by carbluesnake »

Levergunner, I am impressed with that 50 yd. target. I will try that load and see if indeed the gun will shoot. I am not looking for that kind of accuracy out of a Winchester, but if it will shoot 3 MOA, I will be very, very happy.
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earlmck
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Re: load development for my 32/40

Post by earlmck »

carbluesnake wrote:I have tried 7.7gr. Unique and the first 3 went almost in one hole at 25 yds. I put the gun down, checked the target, and fired 2 more. These 2 rds. opened the group to a pattern of 4 inches. I noticed the butt stock has a slight movement, and I am wondering if this has anything to do with the last 2 shots.
Yes, seems very possible you may have "gun" issues rather than "bullet" issues. This 7.7 gr. Unique load should be about right for the bullet -- around 1400 fps velocity and enough pressure to act "normal".
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