gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

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mild bill cody
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gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

Hello, this is a bit of a non lever question, I have a 45-70 made out of an Enfield mk5 with Zebra wood full length stock and coco bolo end and palm, It's been a bit of an ongoing project but I'm thinking about getting a sling or some custom leather for it.

On my win 94 30-30 I had a guy do a custom sling and butt protector for it and it looks great, on my Enfield I don't want to cover the butt of it the way i did on the thirty-thirty, and I have some nickel 45-70 ammo I'm thinking about having on bullet loops on a sling or something.

My question is, has anyone had issues with ammo in bullet loops on their sling, or have recommendation on how they should be mounted or designed?

My Enfield has not been built as a hunting rifle, it's a bit flashier (blued not stainless or nickel) but I don't mind something that is easier for the game to see.

Any thoughts or ideas regarding cool slings integrating ammo etc?
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Mescalero »

I have seen chemical reactions on ammo left in leather slings for too long.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Malamute »

I carry a single small game load in the keeper loop of the sling on my 94's, but I'd be leary of getting much weight on a sling. As you bring the gun up, it sways back and forth, causing the gun to be hard to hold steady. If you always hook the sling over your elbow as a hasty sling type arrangement it wont hurt, but if you dont, it could cause a miss, poor hit or slow you down.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

Mescalero wrote:I have seen chemical reactions on ammo left in leather slings for too long.
Apparently that is why the nickel plated ammo became popular, the brass would corrode slightly, wether from moisture trapped between the ammo and leather, or from chemicals used in the tanning process I'm not sure.
Last edited by mild bill cody on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Mescalero »

Conventional wisdom is that it is the tannic acid, but I can not prove it.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Rusty »

Actually, nickled brass will cause problems as well over time.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

Rusty wrote:Actually, nickled brass will cause problems as well over time.
All the things that can go wrong, but none of the things that can go right. Apparently asked in the wrong place.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by M. M. Wright »

The solution to corroding brass in loops is to have the loops made of canvas. Does the job and no corrosion and I think it looks good.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Malamute »

I think the type of tanning does have a bearing on the amount of verdegris that forms. I have a number of cartridge belts that have rounds in them all the time. Some are easy to live with, a couple are a bugger. I take the rounds out and wipe them off at the beginning of each season, and whenever it seems like its time.

I havent had any troubles with nickel cases. I bought a few for some rifle loads I use for carry.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by pwl44m »

U want a sling that has pockets end to end for those 45-70 rounds. A simple bend of the sling will pop those babys right out.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by AJMD429 »

mild bill cody wrote:
Rusty wrote:Actually, nickled brass will cause problems as well over time.
All the things that can go wrong, but none of the things that can go right. Apparently asked in the wrong place.
Keep in mind some of the guys here are truly of the "been there, done that" type, and it is likely that what you are proposing is something they have done, and they are merely sharing the pitfalls.

Personally, I have not done that much ammo-in-loops stuff, but I have found that:
  • - nickel cases CAN corrode and turn green, just like brass, just more slowly
    - leather is risky, but 'old' leather (maybe more of the chemicals gone by now) not as bad
    - canvas is a bit better than leather, but nylon ("Uncle Mike's") is very easy on brass
    - the 'cooler' something looks, the more likely it won't be practical
    - the more 'practical' something is, the sillier it may look
I agree with the 'avoid swinging-slings' thing, although a sling IS a convenient way to tote a bunch of ammo with the gun. If you just want to tote lots of ammo in case of a big firefight, there may be other more practical ways (or guns), but if you don't mind the heavy, swinging, sling, it DOES work and I've had a 12 gauge with 25 rounds of slugs and #4B in a sling as a 'go-to' gun for years. If you want to look 'vintage', I can't help you - just look at old movies.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by vancelw »

mild bill cody wrote:
Rusty wrote:Actually, nickled brass will cause problems as well over time.
All the things that can go wrong, but none of the things that can go right. Apparently asked in the wrong place.
Don't shoot the messengers if you don't like the news.
If you want it solely for looks, load dummy rounds (even hollow out the base of the bullet to reduce weight) and and lacquer the rounds to prevent moisture from contacting the metal. Maybe even polyurethane.

We like flashy, pretty stuff around here, but real-world practicality rears it's ugly head sometimes :D
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

AJMD429 wrote:
mild bill cody wrote:
Rusty wrote:Actually, nickled brass will cause problems as well over time.
All the things that can go wrong, but none of the things that can go right. Apparently asked in the wrong place.
Keep in mind some of the guys here are truly of the "been there, done that" type, and it is likely that what you are proposing is something they have done, and they are merely sharing the pitfalls.

Personally, I have not done that much ammo-in-loops stuff, but I have found that:
  • - nickel cases CAN corrode and turn green, just like brass, just more slowly
    - leather is risky, but 'old' leather (maybe more of the chemicals gone by now) not as bad
    - canvas is a bit better than leather, but nylon ("Uncle Mike's") is very easy on brass
    - the 'cooler' something looks, the more likely it won't be practical
    - the more 'practical' something is, the sillier it may look
I agree with the 'avoid swinging-slings' thing, although a sling IS a convenient way to tote a bunch of ammo with the gun. If you just want to tote lots of ammo in case of a big firefight, there may be other more practical ways (or guns), but if you don't mind the heavy, swinging, sling, it DOES work and I've had a 12 gauge with 25 rounds of slugs and #4B in a sling as a 'go-to' gun for years. If you want to look 'vintage', I can't help you - just look at old movies.

I'm ok with hearing what wont or hasn't worked, but i also want to hear what does work. Actual experience is as you know probably the most helpful thing, but, if the only input so far is what wont work, imagine trying to build a cake, and the only direction you got from the head chef was what ingredients you shouldn't be using, instead of ones that have worked in the past, you'd be reconsidering why your asking the chef for direction after a while right.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Hagler »

mild bill cody,

While what you say is true, you should remember what the others have said. This helps you to eleminate the bad options.

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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

Hagler wrote:mild bill cody,

While what you say is true, you should remember what the others have said. This helps you to eleminate the bad options.

Shawn
Ok, leather doesn't like brass and even nickel will show corrosion, canvas is better.

SO, anyone have experience with bullet loops that did work well? Anyone find a really nice thumb hole sling that worked well? Anyone modify a sling to work better or have any other tricks up their sleeves?

Image

here is one that I had built, maybe someone can showcase something they've done: I bought a damascus steel knife blank and put some leftover zebra wood on it for the handels. The flap on it keeps it snugly in place, the top end of the sling goes through the eye of the stainless barrel band I had built and goes through the sling and snaps back onto itself, I thought that up and had the leatherworker build it, it works well do far, and the small knife is just small enough and secure enough that it isnt a problem. I think that having a flap that wraps over a few cartridges may be nice to keep them from falling out, and could probably be designed to be asthetically pleasing as well.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 765x53 »

Mescalero wrote:Conventional wisdom is that it is the tannic acid, but I can not prove it.
Verdigris is caused by animal fat applied to finished leather after tanning, neats foot oil, mink oil, etc.
Latigo leather will also react with brass.

Quality vegetable tanned American leather such as "Herman Oak" left unoiled will not produce verdigris.
Last edited by 765x53 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 3leggedturtle »

WOW what gorgeous leather goods. The sling looks like it has seen a fair share of the countryside.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

3leggedturtle wrote:WOW what gorgeous leather goods. The sling looks like it has seen a fair share of the countryside.
Actually the sling is only a year old and has only seen a few days out. I only posted the pic because I'm trying to show what Im looking for to keep things headed in a positive or creative direction, but thanks for the comment. I want to do something bigger and better with the next one though.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by ollogger »

Great job on that sling, the knife is awesome
a similar idea to hold a few cartridges as the knife would be sweet
just take the ammo out after each outing, to cool of a idea not to be put to use




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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Mescalero »

Worth following up on.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

I've come up with a couple idea's now. I think I have a plan, but if anyone has any thoughts, engraving idea's etc. then please pipe up.

I think the second one will take things to the next level in comparison to my first in the picture.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by JerryB »

A couple of years ago I bought a heavy tool belt at Tractor Supply for 10 buck. I took it to my friend that has a boot and saddle repair shop and told him I wanted a .357 cartridge belt, I took several dummy rounds to use. He ordered some leather to make the loops and it does not form verdigris on the nickel cases.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

JerryB wrote:A couple of years ago I bought a heavy tool belt at Tractor Supply for 10 buck. I took it to my friend that has a boot and saddle repair shop and told him I wanted a .357 cartridge belt, I took several dummy rounds to use. He ordered some leather to make the loops and it does not form verdigris on the nickel cases.
Cool. Never heard of verdigris, have to google that.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by vancelw »

mild bill cody wrote:
JerryB wrote:A couple of years ago I bought a heavy tool belt at Tractor Supply for 10 buck. I took it to my friend that has a boot and saddle repair shop and told him I wanted a .357 cartridge belt, I took several dummy rounds to use. He ordered some leather to make the loops and it does not form verdigris on the nickel cases.
Cool. Never heard of verdigris, have to google that.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

vancelw wrote:
mild bill cody wrote:
JerryB wrote:A couple of years ago I bought a heavy tool belt at Tractor Supply for 10 buck. I took it to my friend that has a boot and saddle repair shop and told him I wanted a .357 cartridge belt, I took several dummy rounds to use. He ordered some leather to make the loops and it does not form verdigris on the nickel cases.
Cool. Never heard of verdigris, have to google that.
It's the river Laura Ingalls lived on when they were accidentally squatting on Indian land in Kansas :D
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by jeepnik »

I've posted this before, but these are the two ways I carry extra rounds on my GS. Since I've never left rounds in the loops for an extended period of time, I've had no issues with verdigris.

I prefer the sideways orientation on the sling as opposed to vertical. No real reason, it just works better for me. Now mind you, other than for photos, I don't use the sling and butt cuff at the same time. So I usually carry the GS with a loaded tube and four extra. And so far, I haven't even needed to go to the reload during any trip.

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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

Well, I got the rifle done and blued and ordered a simple leather with a thumb loop sling for the enfield but I haven't got it in the mail yet. I'll see how it works and maybe get it modified.

Here's the enfield, just got back from a third smith who put the front site on it and re-blued it, I did the stock, it was a fun project, though not a lever gun, I thought I'd be a show off and post some pics of the big bore :D

Image

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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by jazman »

Very nice, good job and good looking. I would definitely keep the leather simple, so it doesn't draw away from the rifle.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Buck Elliott »

One reason you're not seeing many encouraging comments might be because a lot of us who Have "been there and done that" have seen, first-hand, the impractical side of your plan.. It might be OK for walking out to the deer "hunting" stand, but has little application in most real world situations.. You'd hear the samr "won't work" comments if you said you wanted to make a gourmet cake, using corncob media and portland cement as your main ingredients..

If what you are proposing was such a wonderful idea, the market would be flooded with commercial examples, and leathersmiths would be backlogged with custom orders.. You have possibly noticed that no one builds masonry automibles either, although there may be a couple people who would thimk they were Cool...
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 92&94 »

It will probably work ok for 4-5 rounds, like jeepnik has on his. Any more than that and weight would be a problem, and banging into stuff. I would prefer to carry them on a belt myself, either in a couple of carriers on my regular belt or in loops on a pistol belt.

I think I've seen it done once with pairs of shells lengthwise on a wide sling like you did the knife. That would help distribute the extra weight some.

On the whole though, I think you see bandoleros instead for logical reasons :mrgreen:

That is a very nice stock, good job on it. I like full stock bolt guns. Enfields look good blond too.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by madman4570 »

Get a hold of 86er's uncle Jerry.
Also talk to Joe(86er) himself.
That is a fine gun and nothing wrong with a few cool big shiny nickel cases on a tricked out Sling.
Jerry did a custom two tone shoulder sling and custom hand fitted sheath for my buck 120

Each had scrolling/fancy initials/ and hand tooled grizzly bears.
Everyone is blown away when they see outfit. He is very reasonable too.

Heck, do it. Fancy is cool and just looking at it will make you smile.
The chemical reaction deal, I would not sweat it. Just check once in a while.
Example, I just checked my cool leather ammo holder bought from rjohns94 with ten 45-70 brass cased Buffalo Bore 405 grainers.
absolutely perfect.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 7.62 Precision »

The rifle is gorgeous.

Stick with simple slings that are designed for function. Stay away from really wide slings or really heavy slings. Generally, it is impractical to carry ammo on the sling, as it can make the sling uncomfortable, the ammo can get in the way when carrying, the ammo can get damaged easily, and it can cause the sling to get in the way when shooting or make off-hand shots more difficult as it swings around. It also prevents the sling from being easily used for shooting.

You carry ammo on the rifle only to make it faster to access if you need it in a hurry, otherwise you would carry it somewhere else. If you carry ammo that you need to access quickly, then you make sure it is in the same place all the time so that your hand goes their without thinking. Think about trying to reload your rifle in a hurry while the ammo is swinging around in front of you on a sling. When you do take your eye off the target to catch it, you still have to get it out of the loops, which will be tight to keep it secure. If you have ever pulled a cartridge out of a tight loop, you know that you want that loop supported on a stiff belt or on the stock of the rifle, not swinging around on a loose sling where you will likely have to use two hands or an awkward technique.

Think about how you carry the rifle, handle the rifle, putting it down and picking it up, shooting in different positions. Think about what the sling does and where it goes. It hits shooting benches and the ground. It swings against brush and trees and gear. it goes in the dirt when you put the rifle down. The force and speed at which it does these things will increase substantially when you hang weight on it. The ammo will be constantly slamming into stuff. and getting in the dirt.

Generally, the fancier, larger, and heavier a sling is, the less useful it becomes.

Use a sling for shooting or for carrying, but not for carrying ammo. What would be super right for that rifle is a trap in the stock for cartridges. :D
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by BenT »

Nice Enfield . :D
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Les Staley »

My grandpa had a 26 inch full magazine 32 special when I was a kid..he never poked more than four or five shells into it..( it would take ten if I remember). He said after two or maybe three shots at a whitetail you were wasteing ammo.. I got in that habit early on and would carry maybe four shells in my back pocket (they wouldn't rattle). Never ran out that I remember.. Also never used a sling..kept the rifle in my hands..a buck would jump up when you were least expecting it..your best and sometimes only good shot would be when you were swinging the rifle off your shoulder (slung)..
Not trying to dissuade you from the nice leatherwork..what ever blows yer hair back..Nice job on the 303. I could get used to it..like the knife on your sling..I carry a sharp patch knife on the carry strap of my possibles bag for flint shooting/hunting...what ever works
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by airedaleman »

7.62 Precision wrote:The rifle is gorgeous.

Stick with simple slings that are designed for function. Stay away from really wide slings or really heavy slings. Generally, it is impractical to carry ammo on the sling, as it can make the sling uncomfortable, the ammo can get in the way when carrying, the ammo can get damaged easily, and it can cause the sling to get in the way when shooting or make off-hand shots more difficult as it swings around. It also prevents the sling from being easily used for shooting.

You carry ammo on the rifle only to make it faster to access if you need it in a hurry, otherwise you would carry it somewhere else. If you carry ammo that you need to access quickly, then you make sure it is in the same place all the time so that your hand goes their without thinking. Think about trying to reload your rifle in a hurry while the ammo is swinging around in front of you on a sling. When you do take your eye off the target to catch it, you still have to get it out of the loops, which will be tight to keep it secure. If you have ever pulled a cartridge out of a tight loop, you know that you want that loop supported on a stiff belt or on the stock of the rifle, not swinging around on a loose sling where you will likely have to use two hands or an awkward technique.

Think about how you carry the rifle, handle the rifle, putting it down and picking it up, shooting in different positions. Think about what the sling does and where it goes. It hits shooting benches and the ground. It swings against brush and trees and gear. it goes in the dirt when you put the rifle down. The force and speed at which it does these things will increase substantially when you hang weight on it. The ammo will be constantly slamming into stuff. and getting in the dirt.

Generally, the fancier, larger, and heavier a sling is, the less useful it becomes.

Use a sling for shooting or for carrying, but not for carrying ammo. What would be super right for that rifle is a trap in the stock for cartridges. :D
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Grizz »

good precise points. I took the sling doo-dads OFF of my guide gun because I didn't want my Mamma to learn that the bear got me or I drowned because I was wearing my rifle.

I carry extra ammo in my pocket 'cause that's what they're there for . . .

lotsa variables

like the look of the enfield 45 though, is that up to 458 WM stress levels?

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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by airedaleman »

Grizz wrote:

I carry extra ammo in my pocket 'cause that's what they're there for . . .




Grizz
Hear, hear!

I do think that Enfield is unique...
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horsesoldier03
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by horsesoldier03 »

That's the best looking SPORTERIZED ENFIELD that I ever recall seeing!

Where did you find the full length stock?
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pokey
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by pokey »

nice rifle.

you might try here for ideas.http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=57.0
careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

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7.62 Precision
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Grizz wrote:good precise points. I took the sling doo-dads OFF of my guide gun because I didn't want my Mamma to learn that the bear got me or I drowned because I was wearing my rifle.
Only two ways to carry a defensive lever gun on a sling - a single point sling attached to the saddle ring cavalry style, or a side-mounted sling carried muzzle-down behind the back on the off-hand shoulder, off-hand controlling the rifle, like it used to be done in Africa. Pros and cons to both ways. If bear contact happens, it is fast - a rifle slung over the shoulder is a prize to be picked up by the guy who finds your bones.
Bruce Scott
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Bruce Scott »

These cartridges have been in this leather wallet for at least 5 years with no corrosion or verdigris developing. I guess it's all about the tanning process.

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piller
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by piller »

I may not have the experience of quite a few on here, but there are cartridge wallets that go on your belt. If you are set on having the ammunition on your sling, maybe you could come up with a way to put a few rounds on your sling the way the knife is on it. Either that, or you might put a couple of brass screws designed for slings in it and use them to hold a leather shell carrier onto your sling. Personally, I have never used more than 4 rounds on any animal, but I have not hunted bear either.
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92&94
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 92&94 »

Bruce Scott wrote:These cartridges have been in this leather wallet for at least 5 years with no corrosion or verdigris developing. I guess it's all about the tanning process.
I expect it has to do with relative humidity, or lack there of. Even if there are residual acids or bases in the leather from tanning, they don't do much without moisture.

Leave shells on a wet kitchen sponge for a year and they will corrode. Leave them on a dry one in the desert and they won't. The leather is the sponge.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by mild bill cody »

Grizz wrote:good precise points. I took the sling doo-dads OFF of my guide gun because I didn't want my Mamma to learn that the bear got me or I drowned because I was wearing my rifle.

I carry extra ammo in my pocket 'cause that's what they're there for . . .

lotsa variables

like the look of the enfield 45 though, is that up to 458 WM stress levels?

Grizz

No, I think it wouldn't take the 458 WM, a P-14 or M-17 would be a good candidate for that though.


horsesoldier03, I built it from some zebrawood with cocobolo fore end and palm, it's just a pachymeyr butt pad and quick disconnect sling loops.

It doesn't extract really well, I think the chambering may benefit from a bit of a polish, I had it out to the range on the weekend and it was fun to shoot though. It's a bit heavy to pack around for long hike's, an SBL would be better suited, but It'll probably come out to push bush for elk this year.

As purty as it is, now that the the rifle build is more or less done, it seems kind of lack lustre to me, I'm thinking about the next one now.
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Richardx »

Beautiful Enfield!

How many rounds will the magazine hold?

IMO a pouch like you made for your knife would work.

I like surplus side lever guns, too.

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Grizz
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by Grizz »

Bruce, nice leather.

If you lived around salt water I'd guess you would have green cartridges by now.

I kind of like the color, verdigris, but noted that my 44 mag reloads that had verdigris, (cleaned off in the process), commonly split so now I throw them overboard. Same with empties that fall in the bilge.

I suppose the interior guys on the rivers just consider the bilge part of the cleanup, eh?

Grizz
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7.62 Precision
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Salt water will do it, even without the leather, but the leather will hold the moisture against the cases. You can carry cartridges in leather when using them for a short while, but never store them in leather or anything else that will hold the dampness.

The ocean resents metal and is committed to its slow but inevitable destruction wherever it finds it.
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7.62 Precision
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Re: gun leather: ammunition loops in slings etc.

Post by 7.62 Precision »

mild bill cody wrote: As purty as it is, now that the the rifle build is more or less done, it seems kind of lack lustre to me . . .
Not to me, I think it is really sharp.

But like you, I am always looking for the next project. Unfortunately for me, it is usually for someone else.
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