Lever-action Tokarev

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jp-
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Lever-action Tokarev

#1 Post by jp- » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:45 pm

Glad to be on-board as a new member. I have only recently gotten into lever guns (about a year and a half ago) and found out 2 things. 1. They are tremendous fun, and 2. I can somehow hit anything I aim at with my lever's. It's the darndest thing.

I have always enjoyed odd calibers, and decided that since I had a few extra rounds of 7.62 x 25 lying around (anyone who owns a CZ-52 knows what I'm talking about) and since I quickly realized I couldn't buy a lever gun to shoot this caliber, I decided to make one!

This was not an easy journey. From the outside this looks like a stock R-92. But on the inside, everything is custom.

I thought adapting a gun to another caliber would be easy, but I quickly learned that lever-action guns hate rimless cartridges.

Almost every single piece on this gun has been modified or altered in some way. A short list of the work includes: Boring out the original barrel, lining the barrel, chambering the new barrel, modifying the bolt, the trap door, the extractor, the firing pin, the lever itself, and extensive modifications to the carrier. The result? It works like a charm! I must say that this round just feels like it was made for a rifle. Here are a few photos. I have yet to shoot it at anything other than paper, but I soon will and I'll try to get a video up. Nearly 100rnds through it already. I'll have to be careful not to shoot up too much of my stash!

I have already noted several changes I will make to the next version, if I make one. Let me know if there is any interest in this.
Rossi-01-small.jpg
Rossi-03.jpg
Rossi-04.jpg
Rossi-05.jpg
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#2 Post by Hobie » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:52 am

Wow!
Sincerely,

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#3 Post by gamekeeper » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:07 am

Welcome to the fire.. :D That's quite a first post you have there! 8) 8) 8)
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#4 Post by stretch » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:37 am

That's a VERY cool conversion. Nice project indeed. 8)

How you chronographed that round in your lever yet?
Curious to see how much faster it is than in a pistol.

Getting that to feed right miust have taken some serious time and
A LOT of trial and error. My hat's off to ya!

-Stretch

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#5 Post by BlaineG » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:07 am

Welcome. 8)
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#6 Post by Pete44ru » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:25 am

.

WELCOME! - You've certainly hit the ground running - quite the tour de' force !

You've esentially made a custom .32-20 - one of the original Model 1892/92 chamberings.

IIRC, the .32-20 can be handloaded for a .30/7.62 cal bore with the appropriate boolits - and nearly everybody like to neck (down) a little. ;)

Have you considered replacing that bolt-top lawyer safety with a drop-in bolt peep sight for even better accuracy ?
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#7 Post by olyinaz » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:29 am

GREAT conversion! The Tokarev round does not get enough attention in my view.
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#8 Post by Washita » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:53 pm

stretch wrote:That's a VERY cool conversion. Nice project indeed. 8)

How you chronographed that round in your lever yet?
Curious to see how much faster it is than in a pistol.

Getting that to feed right miust have taken some serious time and
A LOT of trial and error. My hat's off to ya!

-Stretch
Ditto! As I recall, this cartridge is pretty hot out of a pistol!

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#9 Post by AJMD429 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:33 pm

game keeper wrote:Welcome to the fire.. :D That's quite a first post you have there! 8) 8) 8)
You get a gold star for this post...!

Next thing you need to do is set back the magazine tube about a half-inch, and thread the muzzle for a suppressor... :twisted: I almost did that with my 32-20.
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#10 Post by Nath » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:47 pm

Now that is mighty impressive!!

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#11 Post by jp- » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:24 pm

Ok, I am sensing some interest! Yes, the bullet feeding was the toughest part. I had the gun firing in only a month (single shot only). Getting the ammo to feed from the tube mag took another 4 months! (That was only working a few hours a night on the weekends only.) Currently it is only holding 7 rounds. I think that I accidentally dented the tube and that's why. I also did not change the original tube spring, which is quite strong. I will correct those points eventually. I expect the capacity to be around 12-14rds.

These are super hot rounds! That's another reason that they are so fun to shoot. I don't have anything to measure the velocity.

I am not even sure if I want to start producing these, but if there is strong enough interest I probably would start going into limited production.

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#12 Post by jp- » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:34 pm

AJMD,

No suppressors for this gun! A suppressor is going on my SBR M-11 project. It should be in in 2 months.

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#13 Post by Marvin S » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:39 pm

I like it.

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#14 Post by jp- » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:40 pm

Pete,

The top mount safety is staying, just so the gun looks stock. Plus, I don't need any extra sights. I just point, shoot, and hit. I can't do that with any other guns but levers.

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#15 Post by FatJackDurham » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:58 pm

That is just wicked.....

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#16 Post by 2ndovc » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:31 pm

Well I'll be!
That's about the most original and creative cartridge conversion I think I've ever seen!!!
Wicked Cool!

I have a CZ 52, TT33 and a Polish PPs 43. I've always had a weakness for the 7.62x25!
My Dad's favorite carry piece is a custom TT33 that was a basket case when he bought it for $40 and had it totally reworked.
That is one nasty little round that sure doesn't get the respect it should.

jb 8)
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#17 Post by Udy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:14 pm

Wow that is very cool.
I too am very interested in the velocity in the rifle.
If I remember right I ran my buddys cz tok through the crony a few years back and I am thinking it was running around 1600. It is a hot little round. With a good bullet it could be a decent small game rifle.
I am liking it a lot, thanks for sharing.

No bullet setback in the tube, just wondering about a crimp?

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#18 Post by 20cows » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:51 pm

NICE!!

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#19 Post by Pop Watts » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:08 am

Well Well Well,
Well done.
You took on a very difficult project and seem to have pulled it off nicely.
Time to 'fess up - are you a gun smith????
Pop

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#20 Post by Borregos » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:15 am

Nath wrote:Now that is mighty impressive!!

Nath.
+1
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#21 Post by jp- » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:37 am

Pop Watts wrote: Time to 'fess up - are you a gun smith????
Pop
Worse, an Engineer.

People tell me all the time that this or that can't be done. It's my job to do it. Guns are just a fun hobby. I am fortunate enough to have apprenticed under a 30+year machinist and have access to some decent machines. Although, I really want my own gun lathe.

Jason, I also have a TT33, but not a PP43.

Udy, what do you mean "bullet set back in the tube?"

This is a corrosive round so you have to remember to clean the gun after firing it, but that is just good practice anyway. Stainless was my first choice, but didn't want to spend the money on an unproven concept. The feeding problems were exacerbated by the fact that the round tapers. This meant that as the bolt came back, the next round attempted to ramp up or to the side of the round that was sitting on the carrier. Also, the lever has three functions. 1) It operates the bolt, 2) it raises the carrier, and 3) it also pushes the bullet on the carrier forward just enough that it re-seats the bullet ahead of it into the tube, locking it behind the bullet catch. The lever actually pushes on only about .050" of the rim. Without a rim, I had to widen the contact area, but this caused another problem, as it jammed against the bottom of the bolt. All resolved with some minor and a few major modifications.

Another project that I am working on is a French MAS in .45 Win Mag. It's almost done. I also want to do a 7.62x25 revolver.

-John

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#22 Post by Marvin S » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:23 am

Bullet set back. From recoil and spring pressure in the mag tube the bullet migrates futher back into the case causing pressures to rise to a dangerous level.

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#23 Post by olyinaz » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:05 pm

jp- wrote:
Pop Watts wrote: Time to 'fess up - are you a gun smith????
Pop
Worse, an Engineer.
:lol:
jp- wrote:Udy, what do you mean "bullet set back in the tube?"
Thankfully, I think that most military ammo is sealed at the bullet so that probably will prevent tube stacking from pushing bullets deeper into the case, but you'd have to be careful with civilian ammo as I don't know how tightly the bullets are seated. A Lee factory crimp die might be the ticket but here's a question - does the Tok (and .30 Mauser) head space on the case rim or the shoulder? It matters because if it's the shoulder you can crimp away and not worry too much about it and it really does make this a great round for a lever gun.
jp- wrote: I also want to do a 7.62x25 revolver. - John
Since this is a tapered round, you may wind up with cases pushing back into the recoil shield and making cylinder rotation difficult as they fire form there and stay like that (the shoulder will prevent them from moving back forward after firing).

Fun stuff!
Cheers,
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#24 Post by jp- » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:46 am

Zero problems with bullet setback. The recoil is very light. The ammo only has a "3 dot" crimp, but appears to be well held in. I have only pushed one bullet deeper in the case. That was during testing when the carriage failed to go all the way up and I still tried to cycle the action. It pushed the bullet about 1/8" deeper into the case. I still fired it. It shot fine.

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#25 Post by Pete44ru » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:45 am

jp- wrote:
I have only pushed one bullet deeper in the case.
That was during testing when the carriage failed to go all the way up and I still tried to cycle the action. It pushed the bullet about 1/8" deeper into the case.
I still fired it. It shot fine.
Please don't accept that happenstance as the norm ( "It shot fine") - if it occurs again, I would respectfully suggest you either pull & reseat the boolit, or properly dispose of the cartridge.

It's cheap insurance against the distinct possibility that the bullet's rearward movement will crush the powder granules, changing their burn rate (sometimes catastrophically) - and ruin your excellent work.


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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#26 Post by StephanieB » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:57 am

olyinaz wrote:
jp- wrote: I also want to do a 7.62x25 revolver. - John
Since this is a tapered round, you may wind up with cases pushing back into the recoil shield and making cylinder rotation difficult as they fire form there and stay like that (the shoulder will prevent them from moving back forward after firing).
Wasn't that the problem with the .22 Jet?

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#27 Post by earlmck » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:15 am

Pete44ru wrote:Please don't accept that happenstance as the norm ( "It shot fine") - if it occurs again, I would respectfully suggest you either pull & reseat the boolit, or properly dispose of the cartridge.
Pete has a good point here. I don't know that crushing the powder grains is a possibility, but these little rounds do gain pressure dramatically with a little deeper seating. Just for grins I ran figures with the "QuickLoad" program for the Tokarev round, using 13 grains H110 and the Speer 100 grain roundnose. With normal seating depth pressure showed as 28K psi and velocity about 1900 fps from a 20" barrel. With a .125" deeper seating depth pressure jumped to 46K psi and velocity just got up over 2000 fps. That pressure, of course, is not a problem in the m92 style rifle but might cause a lesser weapon to come slightly unglued. Sure this is just a computer program and not real-life data, but it gives a good indication of what happens if the bullet pushes deeper in the case.

Incidentally, if you did reload for the round that particular load fills the case with powder so that even without a really strong crimp it would not ever get pushed down that 1/8" deeper. Another good reason for selecting a powder that comes close to filling the case in a normal load.
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#28 Post by Malamute » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:17 am

Pete44ru wrote:...It's cheap insurance against the distinct possibility that the bullet's rearward movement will crush the powder granules, changing their burn rate (sometimes catastrophically) - and ruin your excellent work.


.

Crushing the powder isnt the issue so much as changing the case capacity. I beleive they've found + 50% or more of normal chamber pressure in 40 s&w rounds that had the bullets set back.

Yes, the Jet and other bottleneck rounds have had issues when used in revolvers. The chambers and cases need to be completely oil free to function well. The 22 K Hornet seems to have worked fairly well in revolvers as far as locking up the cylinders, but it had very straight sided case walls. I dont know if extraction was a problem with that combination though.

Edit: looks like Earl and I were typing at the same time. :D
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#29 Post by AJMD429 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:22 am

Pete44ru wrote:
jp- wrote:I have only pushed one bullet deeper in the case.
That was during testing when the carriage failed to go all the way up and I still tried to cycle the action. It pushed the bullet about 1/8" deeper into the case.
I still fired it. It shot fine.
Please don't accept that happenstance as the norm ( "It shot fine") - if it occurs again, I would respectfully suggest you either pull & reseat the boolit, or properly dispose of the cartridge.
It's cheap insurance against the distinct possibility that the bullet's rearward movement will crush the powder granules, changing their burn rate (sometimes catastrophically) - and ruin your excellent work.
A few editions back, the Sierra reloading manual stated that a seating difference of only a couple hundredth's of an inch was enough to raise 9mm Luger pressures by TENS OF THOUSANDS PSI... So especially in small and not-very-bottlenecked cases, I'd be very careful with rounds that are 'just a bit pushed in'. Now having said that, I have fired a few 45 ACP ones that way in a 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, but the gun is designed for much higher pressures than the 45 ACP, the bullets were cast lead, and I was willing to take the gamble that they made the 45 ACP cylinders from the same steel as the 45 Colt ones, instead of using pot-metal..
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#30 Post by AJMD429 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:23 am

StephanieB wrote:
olyinaz wrote:
jp- wrote: I also want to do a 7.62x25 revolver. - John
Since this is a tapered round, you may wind up with cases pushing back into the recoil shield and making cylinder rotation difficult as they fire form there and stay like that (the shoulder will prevent them from moving back forward after firing).
Wasn't that the problem with the .22 Jet?
I'm pretty sure that's the case (no pun intended).

The 44-40 and 32-20 are 'slightly tapered' so they seem to feed better than the 44 Mag and 32 H&R, but they are not tapered enough to 'set-back' like the more bottleneck-style or long-tapered rounds.
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#31 Post by Paladin » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:41 am

Very impressive, would have never thought of that even though I also like the round have trained with the CZ pistol and the Russian sub-guns. That lever gun would be a keeper for sure.
You now have the infection from lever-guns will be interesting to see where someone with your talent and drive take this too.
Well done.
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#32 Post by alnitak » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:43 pm

Wow...I am duly impressed! What a great conversion!

I love the Tok round...it would be the cat's meow to have a levergun in 7.62x25!
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#33 Post by Ysabel Kid » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:35 pm

Welcome to the fire! What a great idea. I continue to be amazed at the level of skill the members here have!
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#34 Post by Borregos » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:34 am

Ysabel Kid wrote:Welcome to the fire! What a great idea. I continue to be amazed at the level of skill the members here have!
+1
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#35 Post by jp- » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:12 pm

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

Finished my 1940's French MAS (in .45 Winchester Magnum) tonight and wanted to post a few photos! Not sure if this should be a new topic, but here it is:
MAS-01-small.jpg
MAS-02-small.jpg
MAS-03.jpg
MAS-04.jpg
Note: the mag well inserts are custom made to fit right into the original mag well. They are made out of 4140 and then ebonized. Also, the photos make it look like rust, but there is no rust on this gun! That is the original old patina. Vintage Weaver 2.5x7 Scope.

-John
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#36 Post by Griff » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:53 am

game keeper wrote:Welcome to the fire.. :D That's quite a first post you have there! 8) 8) 8)
+1 - And an ambitious project... even cooler when successful!

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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#37 Post by olyinaz » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:34 pm

jp- wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback!

Finished my 1940's French MAS (in .45 Winchester Magnum) tonight and wanted to post a few photos! Not sure if this should be a new topic, but here it is:
MAS-01-small.jpg
MAS-02-small.jpg
MAS-03.jpg
MAS-04.jpg
Note: the mag well inserts are custom made to fit right into the original mag well. They are made out of 4140 and then ebonized. Also, the photos make it look like rust, but there is no rust on this gun! That is the original old patina. Vintage Weaver 2.5x7 Scope.

-John
That is pretty cool! Mescalero would probably be swooning. :D Gibbs Rifle used to do conversions like this (.45 ACP though) with Enfields a few years back.
Cheers,
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Re: Lever-action Tokarev

#38 Post by Birdman » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:21 pm

A hearty welcome from Danvers Il. JP. I do believe you'll be a fun one to watch.

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