Loss of Value- relining a 1873?

[hemiallen]

Well, I have spent a good week + cleaning and shooting the 1873 B model ( 1888) 32-20, using Georgia arms ammo I purchased with the gun, and at 25 yards it is keyholing 50% of the bullets and accuracy is below my expectations. I had hoped less than the 8" circle pattern it shoots, and suspect at 100 yds I would be hard pressed to hit a coffee can every 5th shot.

So the option I am looking at is sending her to Redmonds and having it relined/ rechambered so I can start having fun with the old girl.

So the bore has rifling, but looks like a sewer pipe after I got the black powder fouling out of it. The condition looked better when fouled.....

BTW, I see 1873's in much worse outside condition than mine for $2500+, so I suspect if they don't damage the outside, even a collector may not be an issue?

Thanks for your input, suggestions

Allen

[Gun Smith]

Any modifiction of an original M. 73 will lower the value to most collectors. But some collectors may not be as fussy about a relined barrel, but it will still lower the value. If you want to use the gun and get it relined, you will take a dollar hit when you sell it, but you will have had the pleasure of using it. If it is a $2500.00 gun, sell it and buy a $1200.00 shooter. Your choice!

[bogus bill]

I once had a 73 like that in .32 wcf. I went and had the bore bored and chambered to .38 special. Was about close to 40 years ago, it worked but was probley a financhial mistake. Once did the same to a shotout 92 in 25-20, to .357 mag in the same era.

[hemiallen]

Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense.

Now for the big question: Find me a $1200 shooter.... Please!

I HAD been looking for a winchester 94, and after receiving one and returning it ( honest, it is a great gun, you'll love it) followed by the fact the hammer would fall w/ the lever partially opened.......broken safety mechanism), driving many miles to look at 2 others, I am of the opinion:
1: there are no good 94's for sale..lol

2: to get a good 94 would take a lot of time and $2500 to 5k, even after going to several shows and seeing nearly 100 94's, most have the inside looking as bad as the outside, which most feel are "nice" but are patina and rusty....

Then I realized a 73 , even though I give up a 30-30 or 32 ws chambering which would be ideal for my intended use, a 73 looks more western to me right now, and seem to be in the $1500-2k for a decent gun not all beat up and rusted bad. They always look better the first time you look at one, so I saw this in person, and 2 weeks later sent him the $ to ship her. Now it doesn't fit the purpose I had hoped for.

If redmond can really make the sleeve hard to see, maybe most collectors wouldn't notice a resleeve vs original?
I really don't plan to sell it anyway, unless a gift-horse shows up at the door......

Allen

[J Miller]

The thing with any older Winchester or Marlin is you gotta get lucky. Keep looking, research the seller. If he's new or has a bad feed back or anything questionable, skip it and go to the next one. Preferably don't buy till you can lay hands on the gun and examine it. I recognize that's not always possible.

You also gotta make up your mind what you want. If you want a nice shooter reline that 73. If you want a wall hanger leave it alone. If you want a shooter that looks like a beater then trade it off. But make a decision.

Screw the collectors, they have taken so many good shooters away from us that I refuse to consider them in any way shape nor form when I acquire a nice Winchester. I buy them for my purposes. I don't buy unless they are within my budget. If they are not, then I wait. Once I get it, it's mine and I do with it as I see fit. When I die what do I care if some prissy collector gets his panties in a bunch because of something I did to a nice Winchester? I don't.

That's my opinion on the subject.

Joe

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense.

Now for the big question: Find me a $1200 shooter.... Please!

I HAD been looking for a winchester 94, and after receiving one and returning it ( honest, it is a great gun, you'll love it) followed by the fact the hammer would fall w/ the lever partially opened.......broken safety mechanism), driving many miles to look at 2 others, I am of the opinion:
1: there are no good 94's for sale..lol

2: to get a good 94 would take a lot of time and $2500 to 5k, even after going to several shows and seeing nearly 100 94's, most have the inside looking as bad as the outside, which most feel are "nice" but are patina and rusty....

Then I realized a 73 , even though I give up a 30-30 or 32 ws chambering which would be ideal for my intended use, a 73 looks more western to me right now, and seem to be in the $1500-2k for a decent gun not all beat up and rusted bad. They always look better the first time you look at one, so I saw this in person, and 2 weeks later sent him the $ to ship her. Now it doesn't fit the purpose I had hoped for.

If redmond can really make the sleeve hard to see, maybe most collectors wouldn't notice a resleeve vs original?
I really don't plan to sell it anyway, unless a gift-horse shows up at the door......

Allen

I think you would be better served with a 92 in 32-20. I have both (both re-lines too) and I can tell you from experience, the 73 I have shot with smokeless any time. I used it as my main match CAS rifle for a few years, but it has loosend some over the years. The toggle link action has too many wear points for smokeless powder. Particularly in an original with somewhat suspect metal.
On the other hand,just by the nature of the design the 92 action is stronger by far even in the old originals. Plus they are much easier to find as a decent shooter grade gun.

[Wrangler John]

What about keeping the Winchester as is and picking up a new Cimarron Arms reproduction to shoot? That way you'll have modern steel and don't need worry about the collector's value. They sell for around $1,200.

Then again, for $1,300 you could send the Winchester to Doug Turnbull for a new barrel or a complete restoration for $3,800. Just kidding.

[hemiallen]

Thanks

No interest in new iron right now, focusing on using my C&R license to avoid the stupid california purchase costs .

I have had Turnbull on my list of places to go while I work in Rochester, maybe August when I am there for a week at a time.

Allen

[1988rrc]

what about a replacement original barrel? try Buckingham's; he list several barrels in his catalog.

[Noah Zark]

Allen:

I would suggest that you slug the barrel and check the barrel groove dimensions by measuring across the lands on the slug, then check yur bullet diameter. It could be that your bullets are undersize by a thousandth or three. Much also depends on the condition of the crown. If the crown is worn and the muzzle swallows the bullet end of a cartridge up to the case, your only choices are 1) Rebarrel and B) Reline.

I had an oversize bore problem with a really nice .310 Matini Cadet that Navy Arms had rechambered to 32-20. When firing either factory or handloads with .312 bullets, I got patterns at 25 yards and only the almighty knows where the bullets went at 50 yds. Slugging the barrel told the tale -- the groove diameter was .316. Since at the time I could find NO bullets in .316", I sent the Martini off to Bill Gostomski in Mt Savage, MD and he relined it. Now it's a tack driver. Since then, some bullet mfrs started offering bullets in .316-.317 for 310 Cadet shooters. Figures. Since I had already relined the Martini, I didn't pay attention to exactly who those casters / swagers were when I saw the blurbs.

So, if your slug shows the diameter is over .311-.312" you might try some oversize bullets if you can find them and your muzzle crown doesn't swallow the bullet up to the case mouth Another option is to size down a larger diameter bullet in multiple steps. Sure it's a PITA, but less expensive than buying a shooter or rebarreling.

Noah

[Old Time Hunter]

I totally agree with this statement:

Screw the collectors, they have taken so many good shooters away from us that I refuse to consider them in any way shape nor form when I acquire a nice Winchester. I buy them for my purposes. I don't buy unless they are within my budget. If they are not, then I wait. Once I get it, it's mine and I do with it as I see fit. When I die what do I care if some prissy collector gets his panties in a bunch because of something I did to a nice Winchester? I don't.

Especially with the '73's, I found a "like new" one still wrapped in the original oil cloth and green Winchester wooden shipping crate (held two guns, one was missing) with papers showing it was shipped in August of 1881. After careful cleaning...I shot the bugger, much to the dismay of "prissy" collectors looking on during the NRA show in Milwaukee a few years ago.

[J Miller]

<<< Snip >>>

I think you would be better served with a 92 in 32-20. I have both (both re-lines too) and I can tell you from experience, the 73 I have shot with smokeless any time. I used it as my main match CAS rifle for a few years, but it has loosend some over the years. The toggle link action has too many wear points for smokeless powder. Particularly in an original with somewhat suspect metal.
On the other hand,just by the nature of the design the 92 action is stronger by far even in the old originals. Plus they are much easier to find as a decent shooter grade gun.

If your going to shoot in CAS matches I agree with NKJ, however for normal use I'd not worry about . CAS shooting is abuse, plain and simple. That's why guns used in it are custom tuned.

Another thing I can see by looking at 73s and 76s with the side plate removed, is those toggles and all their mating parts need lube. How many people remember to lube them after a days, weeks, months or years of use? As we all know no lube = major wear.
The 92s and 94s are built different and stronger yes, but I've seen 94s that were worn out inside because of NO lube. Try running your car with little or no oil in the engine or transmission. It won't last long, same with guns.

Smokeless powder loads do not have to be abusive to the old toggle link actions. Our own KirkD and W30WCF have some smokeless loads that produce less pressure and a gentler pressure curve than actual black powder does. So, you can have your antique and use it too.

I hold to my previous comment, get it relined and enjoy it. No need to beat it to pieces like the CAS shooters do, just enjoy.

Joe

[jnyork]

Well, you said you weren't going to sell it anyway, so the question boils down to a matter of philosophy. What is the rifle worth to you? Is it worth what you paid for it to stick in the safe or hang on the wall and never enjoy it for its intended purpose? Or is it worth it to you to have a nice old piece of history to shoot and shoot well after a little gunsmithing? To me, a rifle is meant to shoot, and I WILL shoot it, and if it needs a liner or something , so be it, my estate can argue over it when the time comes, meanwhile I will have gotten my enjoyment out of it. I shoot an 1886 Winchester .33WCF in metallic silhouette and very much enjoy it, I particularly enjoy hearing the comments of other shooters when they see me drag it out: "Oh, wow, what is that?" " Isnt that thing too valuable to shoot?" etc. I am in full agreement with the previous posters who said "Screw the prissy Winchester collectors" it aint their gun and it aint their decision. My dos centavos. Thanks.

[O.S.O.K.]

If this were mine, I'd check the bore as Noah suggests - you may just need to use loads with larger bullets...

I would not reline the barrel. I'd go with a replacement barrel if you really want to shoot it and can't make the original work - that way you've got an unaltered original to the rifle barrel that can be re-installed if desired.

I would get a nice Cimaron Arms 1873 for CAS shooting if that's the idea. CAS is very hard on the rifle and you will likely end up breaking parts on the old rifle - not to mention beating it up.

Just my 2.

[hemiallen]

Thanks again for the additional suggestions.

I will slug it, I assume a pure lead ball with a screw center, driven in w/o much pressure from the muzzle end so it can be extracted is the way to do this in a levergun?

If I take a loaded .313 diameter bullet( ammo) and force the lead exposed above the case in, it fully engages all rifling, but that doesn't mean it would seal well, I believe ?

No thought of using this for western shooting sports, just another toy that looks cool.

I think I will look for a replacement barrel, would anyone make a new one ( round) or should I stick to an original donor? I think a new or used, with gunsmithing costs would be prohibitive and relining ( $250) would be the most bang for the buck.

Thanks again for more suggestions...

Who sells the 310 cadet bullets?


Allen

[Kansas Ed]

You could always find a rotten donor barrel and then have it relined. My experience with the '73 in 32-20 was similar, and I have heard other reports of the same. If I ever get the hankering for another '73 in 32 then it will be a modern repro with a 32 liner.

Ed

[Old Time Hunter]

hemiallen, take a 1/4 size egg sinker, lube the heck out of the sinker and shove lube in the muzzle(I use vaseline), pound the sinker in from the muzzle end with plastic or brass hammer. As the sinker forms to fit the bore and grooves it should cut off a ring of the lead, but be carefull as you get down to the muzzle as you do not want to actually hit the barrel with any hammer. Once flush, I use a short wood dowel(hard wood or now I have a set of turned aluminum, just have not had the occasion to use 'em though) to drive it in further. Then I take the longest wood dowel I can slide thru the open action (on a '73, because of the configuration, I have a 2.625" long 1/4" dowel that will make it in, but you have to play with it to get it out) and hammer the slug against the dowel from the muzzle side. Then remove the chamber side dowel, close the action, and hammer the slug through to the chamber. You should end up with a good slug to measure.

[slimster]

Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense.

Now for the big question: Find me a $1200 shooter.... Please!

I HAD been looking for a winchester 94, and after receiving one and returning it ( honest, it is a great gun, you'll love it) followed by the fact the hammer would fall w/ the lever partially opened.......broken safety mechanism), driving many miles to look at 2 others, I am of the opinion:
1: there are no good 94's for sale..lol

2: to get a good 94 would take a lot of time and $2500 to 5k, even after going to several shows and seeing nearly 100 94's, most have the inside looking as bad as the outside, which most feel are "nice" but are patina and rusty....

Then I realized a 73 , even though I give up a 30-30 or 32 ws chambering which would be ideal for my intended use, a 73 looks more western to me right now, and seem to be in the $1500-2k for a decent gun not all beat up and rusted bad. They always look better the first time you look at one, so I saw this in person, and 2 weeks later sent him the $ to ship her. Now it doesn't fit the purpose I had hoped for.

If redmond can really make the sleeve hard to see, maybe most collectors wouldn't notice a resleeve vs original?
I really don't plan to sell it anyway, unless a gift-horse shows up at the door......

Allen

Wow, $2500 to 5k for a "good" 94? Especially if you're just looking for a shooter, you should be able to drop a zero from that range and still find a decent post 64 in 30-30 since that would be a more preferential chambering for your use. Where are you located? In the Mid South region, if you search a bit, pre 64 94's can still be found in decent shape for under 1k. Check out the on-line actions such as GunsAmerica or Gunbroker. Good luck!

[hemiallen]

Thanks for the slugging suggestion.

I assume the dowel acts to help bump the soft slug up to fit the bore better than what was shaved at the muzzle end?

I am curious how much resistance the slug generates, and am afraid of getting it stuck...

One more question, once the slug is in the bore say 5" with the wood or Aluminum dowel, what do you use to push it further towards the chamber dowel, and does it slide w/ firm pressure or do you need a hammer to force it doen the bore?

I have another 55 rounds of the Georgia arms ammo, I may quite cleaning the bore now and see if she is better or worse for keyholing/ accuracy.

Thanks
Allen

[Hillbilly]

1894-94 series Winchesters are still about "everyplace"... a little over priced for some of em... but still around.

I'd second Nate Jones... a 92 is a better choice for a gun you want to shoot often compared to a 73.

If you reline the 73 ... have fun. It will be worth a lot more than most of the other stuff you bought this year in a few years anyway.

~J

[Sixgun]

Allen,
The boys have given you a lot of good advice and many points of view. As a Winchester collector/shooter for the last 38 years, here's mine.
1.) Does the rifle have lots (50% or more) of original finish? If so, leave it alone or sell it.
2.) If the rifle is a no finish gun or little finish gun, but has good/excellent mechanics, go ahead and get it relined. Your not hurting it or the value. In fact, a no finish gun with excellent shooting capabilities/relined is more desirable than a no finish gun/original sewer pipe bore.

Condition of the bore is more important to accuracy as the caliber goes down. A 44-40 or 38-40 will usually shoot OK with a pitted bore, but the 32-20's need a fine condition one.

If your like me, its more important/fun shooting an old gun. While the new repros are nice, nothing stirs the soul like shooting a hundred year old levergun--------get your reline---life is short-----------------------------------------------Sixgun

[Chuck 100 yd]

What Sixgun said + 1

[Sixgun]

What Sixgun said + 1

Thanks Chuck I did my Winchester learning at the "School Of Hard Knocks". 'Ya get burnt a few times but a wise man learns from the burning --------------Sixgun

[Old Time Hunter]

One more question, once the slug is in the bore say 5" with the wood or Aluminum dowel, what do you use to push it further towards the chamber dowel, and does it slide w/ firm pressure or do you need a hammer to force it doen the bore?

Use a longer dowel and yes you should have to continue to overcome the friction of the bore/grooves, it'll just be a lot less and that is why a suggest bumping up against another dowel from the chamber side(forgot to tell you to close the action when you bump up against it).

Being what I am, personally I do not care if it is 100% asthetically correct and in perfect condition, I'd re-line it. That is if the bore is actually now a sewer pipe, there is only one wall hanger in this house, everything else gets a bullet out the bore or I get rid of it before I can find ammo to shoot it.

[hemiallen]

Allen[/quote]Wow, $2500 to 5k for a "good" 94? Especially if you're just looking for a shooter, you should be able to drop a zero from that range and still find a decent post 64 in 30-30 since that would be a more preferential chambering for your use. Where are you located? In the Mid South region, if you search a bit, pre 64 94's can still be found in decent shape for under 1k. Check out the on-line actions such as GunsAmerica or Gunbroker. Good luck![/quote]


Sorry I missed your reply

I am after a rifle, not carbine which is the only 94's I see for under $1k and they usually are pretty ugly guns.

And I am looking for a pre-59 for C&R reasons, but I think the last RIFLE 94 was made pre-ww2 as all I see newer than '46 are carbines. I have seen plenty of sub $750 carbines.

Octagon/ crescent butt is what I started looking for before seeing this 73.

To the other replies, it has 50% blue, but it has a rough surface about 40% of the action which looks to be rust the size of pintips, the sharp end.....

Inside , ie the bolt is still blue, I think it sat in high humidity maybe the last 20 years of it's life and received this condition. I have soaked it in Kroil, G96, hoppes and nothing seems to soften it so as to gently rub it off with a cotton towel. Stocks are very nice, looks like factory varnish..

I just took it out in the light. Barrel is blue but a dull overall finish, has a few blips of rust that is hard to see after oiling, and a few places of paint like it hit the doorjamb while being put in a closet, sight is shiny blue with the same spots of dull . Mag tube is all patina, lever is a non-blue with surface rusting maybe 50%, looks like it was color case and silver where no browning from rust. I like the look of this gun 100% more than a patina'd 73 or the ugly 94's I see most of the time.

I see so many Patina'd guns or someone tried to remove uglies and are now silver, this has a nice look, but some dull area's.


Thanks
Allen

[Mike D.]

[quote="hemiallen"]Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense.

Now for the big question: Find me a $1200 shooter.... Please!

THEY ARE out there, b'lieve me.


2: to get a good 94 would take a lot of time and $2500 to 5k, even after going to several shows and seeing nearly 100 94's, most have the inside looking as bad as the outside, which most feel are "nice" but are patina and rusty....

You can pick up an excellent 94 for less than your lower number, it just takes a bit of searching. Now, '86s, that's another sad story.

[Mike D.]

I forgot to say, check out Joe Salter's site. He usually has a bunch of nice, collector and shooter grade 1894s ate way better that ridiculous gunshow prices.

[Tycer]

I had the same problem with my 1892 32-20. I can't get factory ammo to do anything but go bang. I found the Lyman 311316 GC sized .313" works a treat over a light load of Lil'Gun.

I have a box of old Rem half Jacketed SP that shoot well.
I have two partial boxes of factory lead that will need a good home someday.

[Rod WMG]

Along the lines of Noah's post, after you slug the barrel then measure a pulled bullet from the ammo you're shooting to see how it lines up.

Seems I remember Waters or someone mentioning certain bullets being better in "sewer pipes" than others.

May need some experimentation. Good luck.

[Old Ironsights]

Third option (? me no smith, maybe bad idea...)

How about removing the original barrel and replacing it with a new modern steel one? Save the original barrel to "restore" the gun later. Meanwhile, shoot the old reciever with a new barrel and have fun...