How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

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hemiallen
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How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by hemiallen »

I have seen some reference to reloading any early B model like I have only with black powder loads, as man y of the slow pistol powders generate more than 10k pressure peak vs around 7-8 for blackpowder.

Anyone else reload for an old Winchester 1873?

Thanks

Allen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Tycer »

Kind regards,
Tycer
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hemiallen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by hemiallen »

Thanks

I found that very interesting. 1250 fps is better than I had read. Should be a fun popgun.

Allen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by KirkD »

One thing I don't know about, but I'd like to find out, is whether the links and pins are the same as for the 44-40 and 38-40 versions of the original '73's. If so, then the '73 32-20 would be plenty strong for higher than original loads. The wall thickness of the barrel would be greater, and it would be in an action designed to handle the 44-40 recoil. However, the big question is whether the components in the action are interchangeable with the 44 WCF/38 WCF. Anyone know?
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Kansas Ed »

KirkD wrote:One thing I don't know about, but I'd like to find out, is whether the links and pins are the same as for the 44-40 and 38-40 versions of the original '73's. If so, then the '73 32-20 would be plenty strong for higher than original loads. The wall thickness of the barrel would be greater, and it would be in an action designed to handle the 44-40 recoil. However, the big question is whether the components in the action are interchangeable with the 44 WCF/38 WCF. Anyone know?

I have a couple of 38-40's Kirk, you have a 32-20? We could get some calipers going and check...I know that at one point when I had my 32-20, I had it apart at the same time as the 38-40, and I never noticed a difference in the links, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any on closer inspection. Seems to me that if the modern replicas are built to handle the .357 mag, then it wouldn't be design strength holding the 73 back...perhaps metallurgy though. I would be interested in taking dimensions on the links and link pins on the Uberti .357's for comparison.

Ed
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Kansas Ed »

BTW: WinchesterBob only shows one part number for the link sets, and one part number for the link pins (which implies they are the same)....the only action differences he lists between the calibers is the firing pin (strange) and the extractors.

Ed
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by KirkD »

Ed, I don't have a '73 at the moment, although I'm on the hunt for a nice one. Personally, I don't think the 32-20 can generate enough recoil to make a '73 action even work up a sweat .... even higher end loads up around 1,500 fps.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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hemiallen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by hemiallen »

I noticed that also in my research this morning, firing pins seem to be different. I suspect the bolt is also lager on the 38 &44 versions.

I will actually have my hands on my 73 hopefully by Friday and will post the bolt diameter, but from pictures it looks like the 32 has a smaller bolt.


From Paco's information it isn't velocity, but the pressure of the newer than black powder charges seems to be at issue. Georgia arms sells rounds listed as 800 fps, and a bag of them are coming seperately packaged with the purchased gun. I may dismantle one and see if I can determine the powder used. They are sold in their "cowboy action" or is it CASS section....


Thanks for the information

Allen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

In Rifle Magazines "The Legacy of Lever Guns"
page 90 , Ken Waters said that the maximum safe pressure for the 73 in .32 WCF was 25,000 psi and max for the .38-40 and .44-40 were 22,000 psi.

The .32 was loaded to1,177 with a 115gr. bullet and later
smokeless loads of 1,222fps with a 105gr. bullet.

I shoot a Lyman 311008 bullet over 7 gr.2400 in my
Uberti 73 .32WCF and have not clocked it as I don`t care. The accuracy is great and that is all I`m after in this shooter. :D
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by KirkD »

I think that Waters determined his upper limit by measuring the web diameter of the case as explained in his Pet Loads book. In my copy, he has several cast loads listed that are around 1,400 fps for the 117 grain Lyman bullet and one at 1,497 fps on page 760. All of them are listed as 'normal' (i.e., fine for the '73). He suggests that others listed as 'maximum' or 'near max' should not be used in the '73.
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Leverluver
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Leverluver »

I plan on finding out what a new one will do. Not looking for 92 loads or even close but I don't want ppfffft...ting either. Some UltraMax loads I bought (for brass) are pathetically anemic. Been doodling but can't figure out how to get a barrel on my pressure receiver or even if I can get a barrel of the correct bore/groove. Gets more complicated when you chamber small diameter, low (relatively) pressure rounds as the metal does not move enough to show strain. Will need to reduce the diameter of the chamber area to get results.
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by hemiallen »

Ultramax loads say they are 1050fps....

Allen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by w30wcf »

Chuck 100 yd wrote:In Rifle Magazines "The Legacy of Lever Guns"
page 90 , Ken Waters said that the maximum safe pressure for the 73 in .32 WCF was 25,000 psi and max for the .38-40 and .44-40 were 22,000 psi.
:D
Interesting since the W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridges that came along in 1903 were said to develop 22,000 p.s.i. and users were warned by Winchester that they were not to be used in the '73 Winchester..........

I would agree with Kirk that since the .32 has a smaller area producing bolt thrust, that the factory velocity could be increased to 1,500 f.p.s. safely in the '73 with slower burning powders. (Note that the modern reproductions are available in .357 Magnum.)

Regarding the bolt diameter.....a distant friend has an original '73 in .32 W.C.F. The bolt appears to be the same as the one in my '73 Winchester (1882) although I did not actually measure them.

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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Leverluver »

Please remember folks that any statement of "PSI" before the mid 80s is NOT psi as we now measure it. Until someone does both tests on the exact same apparatus, we will not know how exactly they compare. An example, the 357 magnum. I see often where folks rejoice or lament the reduction of 357 pressure from 43K down to 34K. Two totally different means of testing with two totally different answers AT THE SAME PRESSURE. Take a look at the latest Hogdon manual. They list both test systems but I'd bet they are "calibrated" with the same test ammo. The two systems just come out with different numbers. I've done several thousand pressure tests and I can state categorically, I have very little faith in the pressure numbers from the early part of the last century. Not to mention that we have far superior powders today than they had when they were trying to convert black powder rounds to smokeless. I have no dog in this fight one way or another but I intend to investigate further.
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by KirkD »

Here are two loads that Waters' has published in his Pet Loads (I have the 'Complete Volume' version. Note that Waters published a lot of different loads and states that those labeled 'maximum' or 'near max' should not be used in the Winchester Model 1873. The implication is that those labeled as 'normal' are safe to use in his opinion.

The highest jacketed load he publishes under the 'normal' designation is 14 grains of AAC-1680 under a 100 Remington JSP for 1,555 fps.

The highest cast load he publishes under the 'normal' designation is 9 grains of 2400 under a 117 grain Lyman 3118 FN bullet.

Not all his results make sense to me, however. For example, he lists 10 grains of IMR 4227 under a 117 grain Lyman bullet as a 'near max' load that gives 1,490 fps. IMR 4227 is significantly slower than 2400, so one might expect that the pressure of this load would be lower than the 2400 load listed above. On the other hand, it may be something to do with the volume, however 14 grains of AAC-1680 can fit in so I'm not sure what is going on. All this to say that I would never start with his 'normal' load. Rather, I'd drop down 10 to 20 percent lower, chronograph it and then work up, comparing my velocities with his. Sometimes, I've found a huge difference, other times not. If my velocities were faster than his, then I'd stop when I got his velocity for a 'normal' load with that powder, even though I got it with a lighter charge. Hardness of the alloy coupled with differences in groove diameter can both serve to give different pressures than someone else might get. In general, I stick with moderate loads in my old Winchesters, but I do think the '73 in 32 W.C.F. (32-20) has a lot more room for a safe increase in velocity than what black powder could possibly give. The same considerations arise when we discuss the '76 in .45-60 caliber. If the same linkage can handle a 350 grain bullet in the .45-75, which has a thinner wall thickness for the chamber, then the .45-60 can handle higher pressures than the .45-75 and the same amount of recoil as the .45-75 gives, so there is potential to develop a lower pressure smokeless load that would give closer to 1,400 fps for the .45-60. I, however, won't be doing it. I'm happy with 1,330 fps in my original '76 .45-60.

If I wanted max velocity out of a '73 that I could obtain with smokeless powder, I'd pick a slower powder than 2400, say, IMR 4198 and increase the charge until I either got 1,500 or faster, or a ran out of room in the case (which may well be what happens with IMR 4198). If I maxxed out the capacity before I got 1,500 fps, then I'd drop down to 5744 or IMR 4227 and see what I got. However, I just don't like pushing the envelope with my antique Winchesters.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Leverluver »

Mostly, if any tests I did ever correlated with Water's data, it generally by lucky random occurence. Case head measurement is of little use in high power rifles and it has even less in low pressure rounds. I'm looking for 115 @ 1600 @ <22,000psi. (modern rifle). We'll see. Also agree with Kirk about the 45-60. There's a lot more chamber wall thickness and a lot less breech thrust area than with the 45-75 or 50-95. With originals, I'd do just as you do. That's why I don't buy originals :wink: If I break it, I can go get another one. I would never tempt fate with an original. Too much reverence for the old war horses.
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by hemiallen »

Thanks again
I have a lifetime supply of the older 5744 in an 8# jug.

So is the linkage the issue, or setting back whatever recoil lug these have? I haven't handled one much to see what is under stress during firing.

Thank you
Allen
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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by w30wcf »

Leverluver wrote:Please remember folks that any statement of "PSI" before the mid 80s is NOT psi as we now measure it.......
Yes indeed. Good point. In the case of the .44 W.C.F. W.H.V. loads (1,580 f.p.s.) that developed a reported 22,000 p.s.i. when they were introduced back in 1903, the b.p. loading (1,245 f.p.s.) generated 15,000 p.s.i. which was what the '73 was designed for. THese numbers would be relative since they were taken with the same equipment. The .44 W.C.F. W.H.V. cartridges developed 50% more pressure than the standard cartridge and, thus, were not recommended for use in the '73.

If we use a current powder that matches the burning rate of the early smokeless powder used in the .44 W.C.F. and load it to the same velocity similar strain will be the result. Early .44 W.C.F. standard smokeless cartridges (1,245 f.p.s.) used 17 grs. of DuPont No. 2 which has a burning rate similar to 4227. I find that 17/4227 develops about the same velocity.

Allan,
5744...good powder. The early factory smokeless powder used in the .32-20 was DuPont No 1 Bulk smokeless in 9 gr. charges. It had a burning rate similar to 4198. 5744 is just a tick faster. For the .32-20, Accurate shows 9.3 / 5744 under a 100 gr. lead bullet @ 1,203 f.p.s.

Have fun.

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Re: How much velocity can I reload 32-20 1873 ?

Post by Kansas Ed »

One thing that bothers me about this whole thread is that our relative strength issue with the '73 is largely based upon how Winchester marketed their ammunition. "Not for the 1873 rifles". I've often wondered through the years if the differing ammunition was done for Marketing purposes. I'm sure it was a thorn in the side of the Winchester powers that were, that even as popular and wonderful as the model 1892 was, it didn't stem the flow of requests for the 1873. Matter of fact the 1873 and the 1892 standard rifles went OUT of production at about the same time. After reading Winchesters adamant declaration about how strong the toggle link 1876 was, doesn't it strike anyone as odd that they didn't feel the same with the 1873? And doesn't it strike anyone as odd that Uberti can use the exact design and run the pressure up to .357 stuff?

Anyway, rather than push the bounds of the originals (which I personally doubt that you could damage with 1892 32-20 loads), I think that it would be more advantageous and more accurate to reline the barrel of a used Uberti. I know you'd have a better shooter than original.

I'm now wishing I'd kept that 1873 in .32 that I had....I'd start doing some remote tests with it....

Ed
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