New SAA 45, probably old question.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:41 pm

Some time ago I posted I was looking for a 45 Colt SAA and asked for everyones advice on different ones that would not break the bank. I finally found one sold by Cimarron. It was love at first sight and now sits in my safe.
My question is what to feed it. I loaded up some rounds using 255 grain Lee cast bullets( actual weight 246 grains) and 7.5 grains of Unique. They ran on average 742 fps.. I am sure the gun will handle more, but I don't want to turn it into a magnum. Just something that is comfortable to shoot and if needbe will stop some of the critters around here. I would like to stick with Unique or trail boss since my supply of powder is limited.
By the way barrel lenght sure makes a difference. My Taurus Thunderbolt (26 inch barrel) clocked an average of 1008 fps with the same load.
Thanks for your help.
Ken

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:42 pm

8.5 gr. Unique.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Does that take it up to the original loads what ever that was?

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:30 pm

8 grains of Unique under a 270 grain RCBS 270SAA bullet is my favorite 45 Colt load. It's a low recoil, accurate, hard hitting load. What else could one ask for?

http://www.mtbaldybullets.com/asp/products.asp

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:40 pm

Since I am using a 246 grain bullet, 8.5 grains (like Hobie suggested) should just about match your pet load. Works for me.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:00 pm

It might feel mild when you shoot it, but 8.0grs Unique under a 250-255gr bullet is a factory duplication load. (NOT cowboy loads, the real factory ammo.) 7.1grs of 231 under the same bullet is in the same category and I've fired thousands of that load.

Here's a load that's worked real good from my Uberti Cattleman: 8.0grs Unique under a Speer 250gr SWC. I cheat and coat the bullet with Lee LA lube just cos I don't trust Speer's lube.

Joe

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:01 pm

8 to 8.5 grains of Unique (depending on the firearm) will duplicate the original black powder load under a 260 grain bullet. This per John Taffin.

I use 8.5

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:17 pm

According to Cimarron this is a copy of a pre war colt saa. I presume they mean pre WW1. So there should be know problem 8-8.5 grains of Unique. I just don't want to end up wearing the gun.

What was the original weight of the 45 colt bullets and what sort of speed did the get out of them back in the day?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:21 pm

Bis wrote:According to Cimarron this is a copy of a pre war colt saa. I presume they mean pre WW1. So there should be know problem 8-8.5 grains of Unique. I just don't want to end up wearing the gun.

What was the original weight of the 45 colt bullets and what sort of speed did the get out of them back in the day?

It is a copy of a pre-war Colt, yes. But it is made from modern steels and is totally smokeless compatible. Your gun is not, repeat NOT, a weakling. You have plenty of safety built in.

Original .45 Colt bullet was 250 to 255grs at around 850 to 875 depending on barrel length.

Joe

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:32 pm

The "original" load used a 250 - 255 grain lead bullet, over approx. 40 grains of Ff black, for a velocity of 1000 - 1100 fps. Not exactly a slouch..

My load for my Beretta Stampedes, which are the same gun as yours, except for the addition of a transfer bar, uses a hard-cast 250 grain slug over a charge of H-4198 for ~1130 fps..

I also have a heavier load, using a 325 gr slug and a dose of H-110, at approx the sam velocity, which kicks like a brace of Army mules, but is very accurate and consistent..

For your uses, the 8 to 8.5 grains of Unique should do very nicely..

BTW.. trailBoss was made to order for the .45 Colt, and I have had very good results with it, using the manufacturer's recommended 5.8 gr with a 250 gr. Bullet, for ~750 fps.

I would suggest using .454" diameter bullets in any of the Uberti revolvers, to minimize leading..

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:54 pm

Bis I'll second Bucks recommendation of the trailboss, it's a great load for banging steel targets.
I also shot a lot of unique in the 45, and if by chance you got caught up in Mr. Jets bludot craze 12 grs with a 250 gr bullet is really close to the original bp load and still stays within bp pressures.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:31 pm

I go to 9.0 gr. Unque and a 255 gr. swc in my Uberti Flat Top Target. Easy to control, super accurate, and will easily drive through any whitetail out to 50 yards. I rarely need to use the ejector rod -- hammer to halfcock, open the gate, tip the muzzle up, and empties just fall out.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:51 am

The "pre-war" reference means pre-WWII. Colt's halted manufacture of the old Model P in 1941, and junked most of the tooling and gauges..

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:17 pm

[quote="Bis"] I just don't want to end up wearing the gun.

SO SAY I....JUST WHAT IN THE WORLD DOES " END UP WEARING THE GUN " MEAN ???
DO YOU BELIEVE IT WILL LAST FOREVER ?? BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT CAN IF YOU FONDLE IT LIKE A CAN OF PORK&BEANS AND NEVER OPEN IT.
DO YOU BELIEVE IT IS MADE OF OLD USED BEER CANS AND BALSA WOOD ??
WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU ACTUALLY DID---ONCE IN YOUR LIFE TIME--WEAR OUT A GUN FROM ACTUAL SHOOTING ?? ME, I PLAN TO TOSS ALL MY OLD USED UP GUNS IN THE TRASH AND GO BUY ALL NEW ONES.
IN TOTAL ALL MY UBERTI/CIMARRON SIXGUNS HAVE WAAAAAY OVER 40,000 ROUNDS THROUGH THEM. THE CIMARRON/TURNBULL 4 3/4" 45 FROM 1992 HAS WELL OVER 6500 ROUNDS TOTAL THROUGH IT AS OF 11-4-11'S 600 ROUND ESCAPADE UP IN THE HILLS AND HAD NOT BEEN SHOT SINCE 2000. IT GOT 600 MORE ROUNDS THROUGH IT 11-11-11 AND SHOWS NO SIGNS OF FALLING APART YET; WHEN DO YOU EXPECT I WILL " END UP WEARING THE GUN" ?? I NEED TO KNOW THIS SO I CAN GET IN MY ORDER AHEAD OF TIME AND NOT HAVE TO USE ONE OF MY COLTS WHICH EVERYONE KNOWS FALL APART IN THEIR FIRST ONE HUNDRED OR TWO HUNDRED ROUNDS OR SO OF ANY ROUNDS ABOVE COWBOY LEVEL WIMP LOADS.
AND TO ANSWER YOUR WONDERING QUESTION : I HAVE NEVER EVER SHOT ANY "WIMP" LOADS THROUGH ANY OF MY UBERTI/CIMARRON PISTOLS IN EVERY CALIBER THEY MAKE FROM 32-20 TO 38SPL, 357MAG, 38/40, 44SPL, 44-40 AND 45COLT. [ I THINK I AM FORGETTING SOMETHING HERE TOO.....]
AND THIS DOES NOT EVEN GET TO THE UB. '73 RIFLES AND CARBINES IN MOSTLY THE SAME CALIBERS...OH BOY, DO THEY EVER SHOOT !!! AND SANTA BRINGS ME A NEW ONE EVERY YEAR 'CAUSE I AM JUST A S-weet O-l' B-oy...
AND SO IT GOES...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 pm

Hey, Terry, I'd hate to see a real old person get hurt, so just send me everything you have over 20 years old, and no, you don't have to thank me

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:45 pm

I carry and shoot a Colt SAA 5 1/2" .45 made in 1957. I bought it in 1959 and it had only 12 rounds fired through it then. I put an end to that.I started loading for it in 1960 and still use the same loading tools. I have always used Unique and stayed away from "Ruger loads", don't see any need for them.Take your sixgun out and enjoy it,just be sensible about it.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:01 pm

Terry Murbach- I am not the least bit worried about wearing out the gun ( I am to old to wear anything out) what I am worried about is the thing blowing up in my hand. I am not interested in hot rodding the gun, just loading to the guns SAFE potential. If I want kick butt loads I will go to my Supper Blackhawk.

Thanks everyone for the info. The VA has some plans for me for the next few days but when I get back I am going to try your loads and see what happens.

Thanks again

Ken

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:34 pm

Load her up with Colt level loads and shoot the snot out of it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:47 pm

Bis,

For some reason there is an internet tale going around saying the Colts and copies are fragile and prone to failure. This is a pail of male bovine excrement.

Seriously these are not weak guns that are going to fail if you shoot them.

My 1975 vintage gun was almost destroyed, then rebuilt and has digested several hundred rounds of heavier than factory ammo. It's not going to blow up in my hands. Steve Young told me it would safely handle Elmer Keiths 18.5grs of 2400 under a 260gr bullet load. And the early guns did not have the heat treating the current ones do.

The internet is filled with armchair x-spurts that in reality are just running off at the mouth with no real experience or evidence to back up their fantasys.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:28 pm

Well, Paco did actually blow one up - so - somewhere along the line, too much is too much - where that is would be interesting to know.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:58 pm

I have seen several pics of SAA with the top strap seperated from the frame. I just don't want to be the one that figures out where the breaking point is.

It is comforting to know that they will take a beating and keep on ticking.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:16 pm

Since there are different levels of loads listed in a number of places for various single actions apparently some sources have an idea of where the safe limits are.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:36 pm

A very good friend of mine blew up several SA Colts, all in .45 Colt caliber.. Six or seven, depending on who is doing the counting.. He had two rebuilt by a local 'smith, and I was with him the day he blew up the last one, a beautiful, 5 1/2" engraved example.. ALL of his blowups can be attributed to carelessness or recklessness, with most resulting from double charges of fast powders, particularly W-231..
He stretched few other frames with heavy loads of H-110, under 225 grain bullets. he gave me three of the wrecks, in case I wantedbto rebuild them..
The cylinders were blown in all cases, but in the three guns I have, one topstrap is severely bowed, but still attached at both ends; one isbowed and broken free from the breech; the third is bowed and torn almost free at the breech.. The lower part of all three frames show stretching, esp. In the area over the loading gate plunger hole. In the blowup O witnessed, the top half of the cylinder disappeares, and the topstrap was blown off completely. At the shot, it sounded as if he had fired it down a well -- very hollow-sounding. He did however hit the small rock across the ravine, some 60 yards distant, as I saw the bullet strike, because that is where I was watching..
The new Uberti SAs are as strong, if not stronger than the Colts, even the late production Colts. The Uberti cylinders are larger in diameter, giving twice as much steel between the chamber and the bolt notch, which is the weakest point on the cylinder..
Another good friend, John Linebaugh, and I have done a lot ofindependent experimenting with various single action revolvers, and we talk often, and compare notes, and we have concluded that the latest Uberti guns are in every way equal or superior in strength to the Colt product. They are not Ruger original Vaqueros or Blackhawks, but are still stronger than almostvanyone would believe..
The design of the SA revolver puts a lot of steel between the wreck and the shooter.. The standing breech virtually always remains intact, shielding the shooter.. The one exception I am aware of was a Seville or Abeline revolver, in which the manufacturing cuts in that area left foil thin sections of steel, which shattered, driving metal shards into the face of the shooter.. That is, again, the ONLY such incident of which I am aware...

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:59 pm

I have seen a number of blown up revolvers. Both single action and double action. If the cause could be determined it was always a double or more charge of Bullseye or other fast powder.
In other words faulty reloads.

I have no fear about shooting any of my single actions a lot. I may wear my guns out, but they are not going to KABOOM on me.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:02 pm

Not sure how this thread got misinterpreted as being about not shooting the revolver a lot. The question was on load level. Ah, I see TERRY interpreted wearing the gun as wearing it out when the OP obviously meant blowing it up. BTW, Paco's incident was not a loading error but a load of another level not intended for the SAA copy that was simply to hot for the gun. It was unbeknowns to him put in by a friend in one of those errors where there were loads of various levels out together and a person who did not know the marking code loaded the gun then suddenly had to leave. Paco then shot the gun which let loose. He is quite forthright in describing in and taking the responsibility - obviously not wanting any one else to go through that.

Colt's and Colt copies are not as strong as some other single actions. As most here know but of course we can't know what newer posters or readers know.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:04 pm

Thanks for confirming my suspicions that these thing will blow up on you. I was beginning to think that I was paranoid.

One last question. This is a Cimarron Model P made by Umberti, is there any difference between a Cimarron Umberti and an Umberti. I presume that Umberti is a company and not a place. Sorta like saying that I have a 03A3 Springfield made at the Springfield Armory, but I can now buy 1911's from the Springfield Armory. If that makes ane sence.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:25 pm

All Uberti's are Uberti's. They are an Italian manufacturer and make many of the current old west guns being sold by Taylors and Co., Cimmarron Arms, etc...

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:37 pm

They are safe at the levels they are intended for and that is certainly adequate for most uses. But as I said they are not necessarily safe at all levels of loading listed in the manuals.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:38 am

Thanks everyone

Ken

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:23 pm

Beretta too has a line from Uberti. Stampede ,a Colt SA and Laramie a S & W New Model Three, and a slide action rifle rep. of Colt Lightning.

Owen

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:45 pm

The most notable difference, after Beretta took over Uberti, was an immediate increase in fit, finish, and overall quality, even though Uberti had been making strides in that direction, over the years..

MY 7 1/2" Stampede was one of the first out of the factory, SN B000XX, and is the slickest, best-timed, finest-finished, out-of-the-box single-action revolver i have ever encountered, transfer bar and all... I LOVE that revolver...

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:49 pm

I have a Cimarron/Uberti black powder frame 5 1/2" SAA45C, made in 2007. This is one of the best SAA I own. I also have a pair of Colts from the Custom Shop. I must admit the quality is better than the Colts. The Uberti out shoots any of my SAA's.
The only thing I did was replace the stock springs with Wolff bolt & trigger,(leaf type not wire) and the hammer spring.

I took measurments of the bore and cylinder throats. The bore slugs out a perfect .450". Using a pin gauge and micrometer I measured all the cylinder throats. They all measure .4505.
This piece shoots 255 gr. SWC's sized .452" very accurately. For jacketed rounds I buy and load Nosler 250 gr. JHP's. Nosler has these in size .451".

Alliant Unique powder and the 45 Colt are made for each other. This is the only powder I use.

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:28 pm

Here's my Laramie

Mutt · Post by **Mutt** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:10 pm

I "m not able to load any , and haven't since about 25 years old. A friend does for me very reasonable . I usually ask for 255 lead , some thing about as " Rem " store bought. Seems to work very good.My Friend does a lot of loading and shooting plus many contest with him & his pretty lady .
What ever , all works great. My Cimarron shoots better than my Colt though. Mutt

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:08 pm

When did Beretta buy out Umberti? I had reard that the Beretta SAA were a stuff shoot if they shot well or not.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:11 pm

Bis wrote:Thanks for confirming my suspicions that these thing will blow up on you. I was beginning to think that I was paranoid.

One last question. This is a Cimarron Model P made by Umberti, is there any difference between a Cimarron Umberti and an Umberti. I presume that Umberti is a company and not a place. Sorta like saying that I have a 03A3 Springfield made at the Springfield Armory, but I can now buy 1911's from the Springfield Armory. If that makes ane sence.

Ken,

ANY gun will "blow up on you" if mis-loaded. Dang... If you are simply worried about guns blowing up you might want to buy a spring-air gun.

Load 'em right and they will work right.

Buck knows whereof he speaks.

It is UBERTI.

Cimarron finishes or has the guns finished in a certain way for product differentiation. No big deal unless that is what you want.

"THE Springfield Armory" is not the same as nor the same as saying Springfield Armory. Two entirely different organizations and said differently. One can be confused if one isn't paying attention to the conversation OR if the speaker knows not of what he speaks.

I hope the VA treated you right.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:41 pm

Hobie

I know there is a BIG difference between Spring Armory and Spring Armory today. It was the only comparison I could think of.

The VA has gone out of their way to help me here in Texas. I first went to them back in the late 60's when I got back from Nam but that was in S. Calif. and it was more like a booking process than an admittance process. These people are outstanding. They sent me and my wife to Wa. for cancer treatmaents that have turned my life around.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:46 pm

Bis wrote: The VA has gone out of their way to help me here in Texas. I first went to them back in the late 60's when I got back from Nam but that was in S. Calif. and it was more like a booking process than an admittance process. These people are outstanding. They sent me and my wife to Wa. for cancer treatmaents that have turned my life around.

I often write for the lurkers as well as the actual poster...

I'm glad you get good service from the VA. You absolutely deserve it. I'm at the bottom of the list and now I hear they want to absolutely cut me (and those like me) off from services despite retiring from the military. I'm priority 8 right now and will likely remain there. TRICARE is not much better.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:03 pm

I think it has a lot to do with where you live. When I lived in California the VA treated me like stuff. Now that I am in Texas, it is like a whole new world, they have gone out of their way to help me.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:11 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:The most notable difference, after Beretta took over Uberti, was an immediate increase in fit, finish, and overall quality, even though Uberti had been making strides in that direction, over the years..

MY 7 1/2" Stampede was one of the first out of the factory, SN B000XX, and is the slickest, best-timed, finest-finished, out-of-the-box single-action revolver i have ever encountered, transfer bar and all... I LOVE that revolver...

I like mine as well and I feel that Buck giving them a thumbs up is a pretty significant endorsement. Very glad to hear it Buck!

Oly